there is no way we can escape the clear meaning of this statement, but we can try.

perhaps we will also........

No doubt. In the manner in which we judge, so shall we be judged.

Bump for Tom. Is this the thread you were looking for?


It seems I hadn't replied to this. To say that our sin was upon Christ means that He was considered responsible for them, and that He felt the guilt for these sins.
What I see God doing while Christ was dying. Perhaps Ellen White's words would express it better: "The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin." (MS 93, 1899). {7BC 924.2}
And yes, I see God's emotions/actions towards the wicked in the final judgment as being similar.

Yes, I think this is the one. Thanks!

Regarding the response, I don't remember my train of thought. Just reacting from what you wrote, you appear to view God as being sorrowful, which I think is good (the appropriate emotion).

It appears you feel that God is sorry that He has to do something, in the case of the wicked He's sorry He has to set them on fire and make them burn alive, and in the case of Christ something else which you've not specified, but which allows God not to have to set those who fulfill the conditions He's set on fire to make them burn alive because He's done something to Christ instead. What a terrible sentence!

Try again.

It appears you feel that God is sorry that He has to set the wicked on fire to make them burn alive. In the case of Christ you feel that God is sorry that He has to do something which isn't specified clearly to make Christ suffer. The something that He does to Christ makes it possible for God to not have to set those on fire to make them burn alive who have fulfilled the conditions He's set.

It's been awhile since we've talked about this. I can't remember if I've remembered your position correctly. I think I remember correctly that you don't see that the thing that happens to Christ or the wicked is a direct consequence of their sin, but is rather an act which is directed against them as a form of punishment. I don't remember if you believe God sets the wicked on fire to make them burn alive as a form of punishment however.

?????
In the end of time God will feel sorry because His children are experiencing death, when they could have lived! On the cross He was suffering for His Son and with Him.
I don't believe God sets people on fire and, btw, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I asked, "I understand you would say that God was judging and condemning sin, but what does this mean? What was God doing, thinking and feeling? I'm not asking you to get inside God's head, or do something impossible in terms of explaining God, but simply trying to clarify what it is you think was happening; what you think God was doing and what His emotions were.

I guess, to ask one more question, do you see His emotions/actions towards the wicked in the final judgment as being similar?"

You answered these questions. And then I commented on that. I'm not understanding your response to this.

At any rate, I'm glad you don't think that God will set people on fire. I agree that God was suffering with His Son on the cross, and what's more, I don't believe God was responsible for Christ's suffering. (I'm not saying you think this, but many do, so I'm just making clear my thoughts). I also agree that God will feel sorry because His children are experiencing death when they could have lived. I think that's a very nice way of putting it.

I saw a brother coming up with a new interpretation for vs. 17 that I had never come across with. His reasoning is that the verb "is" doesn't appear in the text, but was supplied by translators, which is confirmed by the use of italics in many Bible editions. The use of italics, as many people know, means that the word is not in the original text.

So, he reasoned that what Paul is really saying is NOT that "but the body is of Christ" (KJV), rather, "but the body of Christ", which means--the church.

Only the church can judge the Christians for their eating, drinking and days they dedicate to God, not the local extemists, who are the target of Paul's criticism.

Indeed, it seems strange why Paul makes reference to the body of Christ as the reality that the type pointed to. Why didn't he just say, "but Christ" (would be the reality in contrast to the shadow).

On the other hand, vs. 18 sounds so out of step with the general theme discussed in the remainder of the chapter in both the KJV and NIV. I definitely prefer the rendering of the Almeida translation, in Portuguese: "Let nobody set himself as an arbiter over you", which is confirmed by the contemporary language translation: "Don't let anyone condemn you".

Just a little input to have you thinking about these interpretative possibilities.

How sorrowful would you feel at the legal execution of a criminal who mercilessly raped and slaughtered your wife and daughter? I suspect it would be difficult at best not to wish they suffer grievously. The holy angels will praise the justice of God as the wicked suffer during the seven last plagues. They will even plead with God to double their punishment. It seems holy angels will not feel sorrowful. Will the righteous redeemed feel any differently during the final judgment? In fact, the holy angels pray for the wicked to experience sorrow. Thus, if anyone is feeling sorrow it will be the wicked not the righteous.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.

Revelation
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.

Of course the angels will feel sorrowful. How could an angel be the guardian angel of someone, and not feel sorrow when that person is lost?

We should be careful not to make God (or angels) in our own image.

Mike,
But if I wish the criminal to suffer grievously am I not as merciless as he? If I delight in his death how am I any better than he?