C:Uh, wait!...We are not born carnalR:I completely disagree.

R:The Word of God defines what the carnal mind is:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).

"The duty of intelligent souls is to hold to the truth, to practice virtue. We are born with a disinclination to both. It is sad to find in one's own constitution an opposition to virtues that are commendable in the sight of God, as submission, charity, sweetness of spirit, and patience that will not be provoked." {TDG 34.3}

"The nature of man is in opposition to the divine will, depraved, deformed, and wholly unlike the character of God expressed in his law." {ST, June 9, 1890 par. 12}

We are born with a disinclination to, an opposition to, the law of God.

We are born with a natural enmity against God. Tom may say we are not born loving anyone, but this is not true at all. We are born loving ourselves, loving ourselves above anything else, and this is evident in any baby's experience.

(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates>

R: We are born with a carnal mind, Christ was born with the divine mind - this makes all the difference in the world. What tempts us to sin is our carnal mind, not our body. This carnal mind is the same as the carnal nature. It's this carnal nature which tempts us.

"Every Christian will be assailed by the allurements of the world, the clamors of the carnal nature, and the direct temptations of Satan [the three sources of temptation: the world, the flesh and the devil]. No one is safe. No matter what our experience has been, no matter how high our station, we need to watch and pray continually. We must be daily controlled by the Spirit of God or we are controlled by Satan." {5T 102.1}

T: Christ was tempted in all points as we are [the three sources of temptation: the world, the flesh, and the devil]. He didn't have a carnal mind though; He had sinful flesh.

R:Precisely. In His case, "flesh" was different from carnal mind. But, in our case, the two are one and the same thing.

C:The sinful human mind becomes carnal by use; it is not carnal by mere existence.

R:You start to use it as soon as you are born, and this can be seen in any newborn.

C:The sinful human mind becomes carnal by use; it is not carnal by mere existence.

R:You start to use it as soon as you are born, and this can be seen in any newborn.

(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates>

This is the primary definition for "love" from Webster's.

Why would you limit this to being born? That is, this wouldn't start happening at birth, right? It would be difficult to observe what a fetus is doing inside the womb, but it's not qualitatively acting any differently inside than outside, right? So it's not accurate to say "you start to use it as soon as you are born" is it?

On what basis do you assert a fetus (or newborn) is using a carnal mind? Because it cries when its hungry? How is it acting any differently than say a cat? Would we say a cat has a carnal mind because it meows when its hungry?

That's fine: the point is..., that it's by choice and not by nature alone.

T:(1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child> (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests <love for his old schoolmates>

This is the primary definition for "love" from Webster's.

R:And this is the primary definition for “love” from Ellen White:

Supreme love for God and unselfish love for one another--this is the best gift that our heavenly Father can bestow. This love is not an impulse but a divine principle, a permanent power. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. Only in the heart where Jesus reigns is it found. --AA 551

In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the ruling principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life, and sheds a refining influence on all around. {AG 237.5}

A divine principle found in the heart of those in whom Christ reigns, which rules the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions and ennoble the affections. Where is this definition in Webster’s? A holy being is born with this principle implanted in the heart.

T:Why would you limit this to being born? That is, this wouldn't start happening at birth, right? It would be difficult to observe what a fetus is doing inside the womb, but it's not qualitatively acting any differently inside than outside, right? So it's not accurate to say "you start to use it as soon as you are born" is it?

R:Tom, selfishness is "inwrought in our very being," as Ellen White says, before we are born - in fact, from the moment we are conceived - but brain activity begins in fetuses from the sixth month onward, if memory serves me well.

However, as you said, we don't know what happens before birth, so, for all practical purposes, we begin to show selfishness from the moment we are born.

T:On what basis do you assert a fetus (or newborn) is using a carnal mind? Because it cries when its hungry? How is it acting any differently than say a cat? Would we say a cat has a carnal mind because it meows when its hungry?

R:I'd say the principle of selfishness extended to animals, too, when man sinned.

Have you ever seen an animal steal food from another animal? Have you ever seen animals fight for food, or territory, or whatever?
In humans the manifestation of this principle is the carnal mind – me first.

C:That's fine: the point is..., that it's by choice and not by nature alone.

R:It's the nature which produces the choices.

As I use to say, there is no way a thornbush doesn't produce thorns.
The physical nature of Jesus was weak like ours; He was a real man.

The difference was in His moral nature - i.e., in His mind.

Christ was born with a divine mind - a mind none of us is born with.

But He overcame because of His divine mind - and this is our hope.