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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12755
03/14/05 02:24 PM
03/14/05 02:24 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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John B, yes, our definition of the word or concept "perfection" definitely affects our understanding of the doctrine of perfection. I believe, so far as salvation is concerned, perfection means living in harmony with our personal convictions and conscience according to the light God has revealed to us.
Will, which camp do I subscribe to? The one that teaches we can live up to the light God has revealed to us.
Cheri, amen! God is more than sufficient to save us, to empower us to walk in the light - just like Jesus did. Thank you.
Tom, by having the faith of Jesus we can stay connected to the Father, we can imitate the example of Jesus. From rebirth to the return of Christ it is possible to live perfectly in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus.
John, the experience of the 144,000, so far as living without committing a known sin, is possible now. The latter rain does not help them to overcome sin, rather it helps them to proclaim the 3AMs with renewed strength and power.
We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. Jesus was born perfect and He became perfect as He grew in grace and knowledge and experience. The same thing applies to born again believers - while they are abiding in Christ as Christ abode in the Father.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12756
03/14/05 02:30 PM
03/14/05 02:30 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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I agree John. The Bible tells us so, and thats good enough for me ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif) Amen Mike! I know what you are saying, and I thank God for continually guiding us in His paths as we follow Christ. God Bless, Will
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12757
03/15/05 03:10 AM
03/15/05 03:10 AM
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Mike Lowe posted that "Jesus was born perfect."
What do you mean, Mike, that Jesus Christ was born perfect?
Wasn't He born as we are born, as a human baby with the same human nature that we were born with?
What is the difference between the baby Jesus at birth, and the baby Mike at birth, the baby Daryl at birth, so on and so forth?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12758
03/15/05 10:50 AM
03/15/05 10:50 AM
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Greetings Brother Daryl,
Your question: quote:
I am not questioning whether or not Jesus as a baby was connected to the Father, I am just asking how Jesus, as a baby, was connected to the Father?
quote:
When the Majesty of heaven became a babe and was entrusted to Mary, she did not have much to offer for the precious gift. She brought to the altar only two turtledoves, the offering appointed for the poor; but they were an acceptable sacrifice to the Lord. She could not present rare treasures such as the wise men of the East came to Bethlehem to lay before the Son of God; yet the mother of Jesus was not rejected because of the smallness of her gift. It was the willingness of her heart that the Lord looked upon, and her love made the offering sweet. So God will accept our gift, however small, if it is the best we have, and is offered from love to Him.--RH, Dec. 9, 1890.{DG 50.1}
quote:
The child Jesus did not receive instruction in the synagogue schools. His mother was His first human teacher. From her lips and from the scrolls of the prophets, He learned of heavenly things. The very words which He Himself had spoken to Moses for Israel He was now taught at His mother's knee. As He advanced from childhood to youth, He did not seek the schools of the rabbis. He needed not the education to be obtained from such sources; for God was His instructor.--DA 70 (1898).{DG 50.4}
Mary was entrusted with Christ, and was His first teacher. Christ was the helpless babe growing and learning, being the Exemplar from the beginning of His humanity always showing His humility.
quote:
If the youth rightly appreciate this important matter of character building, they will see the necessity of doing their work so that it will stand the test of investigation before God. The humblest and weakest, by persevering effort in resisting temptation and seeking wisdom from above, may reach heights that now seem impossible. These attainments cannot come without a determined purpose to be faithful in the fulfillment of little duties. It requires constant watchfulness that crooked traits shall not be left to strengthen. The young may have moral power, for Jesus came into the world that He might be our example and give to all youth and those of every age divine help. {CG 167.3}
Christ learned of His connection of the Heavenly Father through His human parents. But by the age of 12 Christ was ready for the personal connection between Son and Father.
Remember Christ was our Exemplar in all areas of life, from infant to man. We are to learn to follow this example.
Your Sister in Christ Jesus
Cheri Fritz
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12759
03/15/05 02:14 PM
03/15/05 02:14 PM
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OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Cheri, nice quotes. Thank you. Mary sure had an awesome responsibility.
Will, yes, it is good to know all promises are possible, in Christ. But, of course, we would also have to define an unknown defective trait of character.
Daryl, we are born odedient to the controlling influence of Satan, the slaves of sin, self and Satan. We begin sinning automatically, from the moment of consciousness. Jesus, on the other hand, was born obedient to the controlling influence of the Holy Spirit. He resisted the sinful clamorings of His fallen nature, from the moment of consciousness.
Jesus was born perfect, that is, He did not start sinning from the moment of consciousness. And He never disconnected from the Holy Spirit, He never stopped partakng of the divine nature, thus He never committed a known sin. He began perfect and He became perfect, that is, He grew in grace, and in knowledge, as He matured from childhood to manhood.
Born again believers begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. And it is their privilege to live without disconnecting from the Holy Spirit, to always partake of the divine nature, and to never commit another known sin. That is what is available to them.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12760
03/15/05 02:23 PM
03/15/05 02:23 PM
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Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
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Mike,
I am not pursuing this discussion any more.. The neurosis involved in attempting to define something that is not known is short of ridiculous. Let me know what your "unknown defective character trait" is.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12761
03/16/05 02:43 PM
03/16/05 02:43 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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One way of looking at it, in the context of born again believers, is to define an "unknown defective trait of character" as non-existent. That is, in the case of born again believers there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. By the time they are born again there are no unrevealed, unknown, unconfessed defects of character.
The reason this makes sense is the fact the Holy Spirit reveals all of their defective traits of character BEFORE they experience the miracle of rebirth. Of course, even worldly people are aware of their character defects, but during the process of conversion, before the moment they are born again, the Holy Spirit reveals their defects of character in light of the Cross.
It is this experience, seeing their defective traits of character in light of the Cross, in light of the death of Jesus, is what enables them to confess each sinful trait as the Holy Spirit reveals them, which He does one at a time, no faster than they can bear it, until the old man is dead and buried. Rebirth happens the moment their old man is dead, the moment their last defect has been revealed and confessed.
Another important consideration at this point is to define the difference between a defective trait of "character" and sins of ignorance. Born again believers have crucified their defective traits of character, but they may still have sins of ignorance. So, what is a sin of ignorance? and how does it differ from defective traits of character? What is character?
And, of course, they still possess sinful flesh nature, which torments them day and night with unholy thoughts and feelings, which must be resisted as a temptation, by staying connected to Jesus, by continually partaking of the divine nature. They must not confuse these familiar temptations with their former defective traits of character. The pull of sin they feel constantly is not the result of unknown or unconquered traits of character, but rather it originates with their fallen nature. This distinction is significant.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12762
03/16/05 10:54 PM
03/16/05 10:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
One way of looking at it, in the context of born again believers, is to define an "unknown defective trait of character" as non-existent. That is, in the case of born again believers there is no such thing as an unknown defective trait of character. By the time they are born again there are no unrevealed, unknown, unconfessed defects of character.
This clearly isn't the case. Martin Luther, for example, did not keep the Sabbath. Being a Sabbath-breaker was for him an "unknown defective trait of character" unless you have an odd definition for one of these words.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12763
03/17/05 02:01 PM
03/17/05 02:01 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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quote:
Another important consideration at this point is to define the difference between a defective trait of "character" and sins of ignorance. Born again believers have crucified their defective traits of character, but they may still have sins of ignorance. So, what is a sin of ignorance? and how does it differ from defective traits of character? What is character?
Tom, I agree with you. Martin Luther was born again and yet there were several areas of his life not in harmony with the truth. The sabbath, however, was a sin of ignorance, in his case. It wasn't a defective trait of character. What is the difference?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12764
03/18/05 03:13 AM
03/18/05 03:13 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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You said there's no such thing as an unknown defect of character. When I presented you with an example of such, you said that since it was unknown, then it couldn't be a defect of character. Well if you're going to respond like that, why use the word "unknown" in the first place?
Just say there's no such thing as a defect of character and leave it at that, if that's what you think.
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