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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127809
09/27/10 10:13 PM
09/27/10 10:13 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Rosangela, I hope you take some time to address my post more thoroughly. Do you agree that A&E, before the Fall, possessed advantages they lost in consequence of the Fall? If so, what were they? For example, do you think having a sinless nature gave them an advantage we don't possess today?
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127810
09/27/10 11:17 PM
09/27/10 11:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Adam and Eve, before the Fall, possessed advantages not available to us nowadays. We cannot point to them, therefore, to prove living without sinning is possible. Why not? Because they sinned! No...: they were not sinful by nature. The Son of God took on his divine nature our sinful nature..., so his righteousness is at least a perfect example for us of righteousness by faith. 
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127814
09/28/10 03:23 AM
09/28/10 03:23 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Obviously, if Christ could not be tempted, and if He could not fight our battles, He could not be our helper. He had to assume man's nature. But to what extent must Christ's human nature go? J & W taught that, to be our helper, Christ must be, and indeed was, born with the propensities of sin, No they didn't! something which there is no basis for asserting. This is true. So why assert it? Really, if you're going to make an assertion like this, you ought to quote *something* which supports it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127815
09/28/10 03:27 AM
09/28/10 03:27 AM
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OP
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T:The purpose of this topic is not do debate what human nature Christ took, but to discuss if and how Christ's assumed human nature impacts righteousness by faith
R:As I see it, it's impossible to discuss one thing without discussing the other. I said "debate." Sure, a discussion of some sort would be necessary. But we have other threads which quote the SOP and Scripture to try to establish which human nature Christ assumed. We don't need to repeat that here. What I'm wishing to discuss is your assertion that it doesn't make any difference what point of view one holds in regards to Christ's human nature in respect to righteousness by faith. To discuss this, once can postulate that Christ took human nature A or B, and explain why this makes no difference as far as righteousness by faith is concerned, or why it does. It's not necessary to discuss why A or B is true. That should be clear. If you disagree, please explain why.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127816
09/28/10 03:31 AM
09/28/10 03:31 AM
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OP
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Lawrence, Kansas
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MM:Adam and Eve, before the Fall, possessed advantages not available to us nowadays. We cannot point to them, therefore, to prove living without sinning is possible. Why not?
R:Because they sinned! Clearly what MM meant is that Adam and Eve cannot be pointed to to prove that fallen humanity could live without sinning. And, indeed, EGW makes the same argument that it was necessary that Christ demonstrate that the "sons and daughters" of Adam could live without sinning. As Jones put it, sinless living in sinless flesh is not a mystery at all. Sinless living in sinful flesh is "the mystery of godliness."
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Tom]
#127820
09/28/10 12:02 PM
09/28/10 12:02 PM
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5500+ Member
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Brazil
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What I'm wishing to discuss is your assertion that it doesn't make any difference what point of view one holds in regards to Christ's human nature in respect to righteousness by faith. Let's invert things. I suppose J & W would agree with Ellen White´s view on righteousness by faith. But Ellen White preached righteousness by faith without preaching that Christ was born with propensities of sin/disobedience.
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Tom]
#127821
09/28/10 12:07 PM
09/28/10 12:07 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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R: Obviously, if Christ could not be tempted, and if He could not fight our battles, He could not be our helper. He had to assume man's nature. But to what extent must Christ's human nature go? J & W taught that, to be our helper, Christ must be, and indeed was, born with the propensities of sin
T: No they didn't! ??? Yes, they did! Or are you trying to make any distinction between propensities of sin and sinful propensities?
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Tom]
#127822
09/28/10 12:11 PM
09/28/10 12:11 PM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Clearly what MM meant is that Adam and Eve cannot be pointed to to prove that fallen humanity could live without sinning. To begin with, that wasn't Satan's accusation. "After the fall of man, Satan declared that human beings were proved to be incapable of keeping the law of God, and he sought to carry the universe with him in this belief. Satan's words appeared to be true, and Christ came to unmask the deceiver. ... Christ came to the earth, taking humanity and standing as man's representative, to show in the controversy with Satan that man, as God created him, connected with the Father and the Son, could obey every divine requirement. {1SM 253}
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Rosangela]
#127824
09/28/10 12:39 PM
09/28/10 12:39 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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To begin with, that wasn't Satan's accusation. From what you quoted: After the fall of man, Satan declared that human beings were proved to be incapable of keeping the law of God, and he sought to carry the universe with him in this belief. It was *after* the fall that Satan declared that human beings were proved incapable of keeping the law of God. And how did Christ go about disproving this claim? By taking fallen human nature to show that fallen human beings could keep the law. Satan's words appeared to be true, and Christ came to unmask the deceiver. The Majesty of heaven undertook the cause of man, and with the same facilities that man may obtain, withstood the temptations of Satan as man must withstand them. This was the only way in which fallen man could become a partaker of the divine nature. In taking human nature, Christ was fitted to understand man's trials and sorrows and all the temptations wherewith he is beset. Angels who were unacquainted with sin could not sympathize with man in his peculiar trials. Christ condescended to take man's nature, and was tempted in all points like as we, that He might know how to succor all who should be tempted. {1SM 252.1}
In assuming humanity Christ took the part of every human being. He was the Head of humanity. A Being divine and human, with His long human arm He could encircle humanity, while with His divine arm He could lay hold of the throne of the Infinite.
What a sight was this for Heaven to look upon! Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. This was humiliation greater than finite man can comprehend. God was manifest in the flesh. {1SM 253}
Christ "took our nature in its deteriorated condition" to disprove Satan's claims. Some other quotes on this subject: He lived the law of God, and honored it in a world of transgression, revealing to the heavenly universe, to Satan, and to all the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that through His grace humanity can keep the law of God. . . . {AG 42.5} Christ showed that fallen man could keep the law. Because man fallen could not overcome Satan with his human strength, Christ came from the royal courts of heaven to help him with His human and divine strength combined. Christ knew that Adam in Eden with his superior advantages might have withstood the temptations of Satan and conquered him. He also knew that it was not possible for man out of Eden, separated from the light and love of God since the Fall, to resist the temptations of Satan in his own strength. In order to bring hope to man, and save him from complete ruin, He humbled Himself to take man's nature, that with His divine power combined with the human He might reach man where he is. He obtained for the fallen sons and daughters of Adam that strength which it is impossible for them to gain for themselves, that in His name they might overcome the temptations of Satan.--Redemption, or the Temptation of Christ, page 44. {Te 121.2} This points out that man after the fall could not overcome in his own strength, so He humbled Himself to take man's nature that "He might reach man were he is." At any rate, if one just considers things logically, it doesn't make any sense to assert that man, as he was created, could not keep the law. No one would believe that. Of course God wouldn't create creatures incapable of believing His law. Why would He do such a thing? The question is if *fallen* man can obey the law, and it's easy to see how one could question that.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith?
[Re: Tom]
#127825
09/28/10 12:42 PM
09/28/10 12:42 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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R: Obviously, if Christ could not be tempted, and if He could not fight our battles, He could not be our helper. He had to assume man's nature. But to what extent must Christ's human nature go? J & W taught that, to be our helper, Christ must be, and indeed was, born with the propensities of sin
T: No they didn't!
R:Yes, they did! No they didn't. As I said in my previous post: Really, if you're going to make an assertion like this, you ought to quote *something* which supports it. Or are you trying to make any distinction between propensities of sin and sinful propensities? I'm not trying to do anything until you produce some evidence to establish your assertion. You've made a claim. You should provide some evidence to support it.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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