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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127818
09/28/10 04:22 AM
09/28/10 04:22 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Tom
You left out the Portuguese.

But, I'm being picky. A very nice post.
Brazil isnt in North America.. :P


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127819
09/28/10 04:29 AM
09/28/10 04:29 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, it sounds like you disapprove of using the SOP as a shortcut to arrive at truth. Why should I spend my entire life discovering truths God has already clearly confirmed through the SOP? I feel like it would be a waste of time to take the time to verify what God has already verified and validated. I believe it is better to believe the truth my entire life rather than wasting my entire life discovering what God has already revealed and stamped with the seal of His approval. No, I'm not implying there is no more truth to discover. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust God's storehouse of treasures.
Or maybe I disapprove of using shortcuts to arrive at truth?

Why you need to spend your time discovering truths despite God already having shown them to others? For the same reason as living on your parents faith will only take you so far. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will need to replace their surrogate faith (surrogate for you, not for them) and get your own or you will likely leave. That something is true doesnt help you much until you know why it is true and it being true starts making a difference for you.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: vastergotland] #127823
09/28/10 12:12 PM
09/28/10 12:12 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: thomas
Brazil isnt in North America.. :P


That explains it. I see now in looking at what you wrote that you were speaking just of North America.

I see things as you wrote them as well. I would add that in looking back at history, many things are clear. That is, it makes sense that things happened the way they did; one can see patterns and reasons. So for someone as intelligent as God, it's not surprising that He could foresee the broad patterns of history.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127827
09/28/10 01:34 PM
09/28/10 01:34 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,501
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The atheist doesn't understand why God hasn't fully explained to us why He chose to create {beings} even though He knew which ones would sin and rebel and die in the lake of fire. He mistakenly concludes such a God must be cruel and uncaring. I can't imagine what the atheist would conclude about a god who created {beings} knowing some of them might sin and rebel and die in the lake of fire but hoping they wouldn't. I know what I think about such a god.
Quote:
The reasons why Jesus chooses to intervene or not to intervene have not been explained. The facts are, though, that He does indeed choose to intervene or not to intervene. He knows best, even if the atheist despises the whole concept.
So do you think if we basically told the atheist that he was ignorant of his ignorance he would go,
Praise the Lord! I had no idea. I will now be a Christian?
Why the difference between the atheist and you? Is it only because you are aware of your ignorance and he isn't? Meaning the solution would be to tell the atheist he is ignorant. With the assumption many, if not most, atheists have reacted in a similar fashion, this could be an outreach tool.

Quote:
I believe single-threaded, as it relates to the future, means it can play out only one way; whereas, multi-threaded means it can play out many different ways. Since God knows the future like history it means, from His supernatural perspective, He knows the facts before, during, and after the fact. God occupies the past, present, and future simultaneously without destroying the natural flow of time and space. I suspect time and space did not exist prior to Jesus creating free moral agents (as opposed to animals and inanimate nature).
Thanks for explaining that. So if multi-threaded means it can play out in different ways, would that mean God wouldn't know which way it will play out? Otherwise, if God knows the one way it will play out, how could it play out in different ways? Said another way, if God knows which way it will play out, it can, and only can, play out in that one way.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127838
09/28/10 03:23 PM
09/28/10 03:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
The issue is, what is the nature of the future? Is it single-threaded or multi-threaded? Whatever it is, that is what God knows it to be, right? Or do you think God knows the future to be something that it is not? (Please answer).

I believe God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. You don't. I believe it has no effect whatsoever on how things unfold chronologically in time and space for FMAs. You don't. I believe the future is as free and open as if God knew nothing about it. You don't. You believe it is illogical. I don't. You believe God has known for hundreds of years that the future will play out according to the multitude of details in the SOP. So do I.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: vastergotland] #127840
09/28/10 03:35 PM
09/28/10 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: vastergotland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Thomas, it sounds like you disapprove of using the SOP as a shortcut to arrive at truth. Why should I spend my entire life discovering truths God has already clearly confirmed through the SOP? I feel like it would be a waste of time to take the time to verify what God has already verified and validated. I believe it is better to believe the truth my entire life rather than wasting my entire life discovering what God has already revealed and stamped with the seal of His approval. No, I'm not implying there is no more truth to discover. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust God's storehouse of treasures.
Or maybe I disapprove of using shortcuts to arrive at truth?

Why you need to spend your time discovering truths despite God already having shown them to others? For the same reason as living on your parents faith will only take you so far. Sooner or later, probably sooner, you will need to replace their surrogate faith (surrogate for you, not for them) and get your own or you will likely leave. That something is true doesnt help you much until you know why it is true and it being true starts making a difference for you.

As you know, I trust the SOP the same way I trust the NT. For me, experiencing the truth is more important than discovering it. I feel no need to verify what God has validated in the SOP.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127843
09/28/10 03:51 PM
09/28/10 03:51 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:The issue is, what is the nature of the future? Is it single-threaded or multi-threaded? Whatever it is, that is what God knows it to be, right? Or do you think God knows the future to be something that it is not? (Please answer).

M:I believe God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. You don't.


In order for God to simultaneously existed in the past, present and future, the past, present and future would have to exist simultaneously. You are correct that I don't believe this. I believe the past existed in, well, the past. The present exists now. The future doesn't exist yet.

Quote:
M:I believe it has no effect whatsoever on how things unfold chronologically in time and space for FMAs. You don't.


I don't what? I don't believe that God's existing simultaneously in the past, present and future has no effect on how things unfold chronologically? If this is what you're asserting, this isn't what I don't believe. What I don't believe is that the past, present and future simultaneously exist. I believe things unfold chronologically. For God, as well as for other beings. Certainly this is how God presents Himself through Scripture (as perceiving things to unfold chronologically). There's ample evidence of this.

Quote:
M:I believe the future is as free and open as if God knew nothing about it. You don't.


Pardon? I believe the future is free and open. Why are you saying I don't believe this?

Quote:
You believe it is illogical. I don't.


What is "it"? What I say is illogical is the idea that, on the one hand, the future is open, but, on the other hand, God knows it to be fixed.

Quote:
M:You believe God has known for hundreds of years that the future will play out according to the multitude of details in the SOP. So do I.


I took issue with your phrase "the multitude of details." Also how we perceive that this works is quite different. I believe God knows these things on the basis of His intelligence (His ability to reason from cause to effect, to visualize, to understand principles, and the character of people, religions, and nations, etc.) not on the basis of crystal-ball like powers, or the ability to simultaneously exist in the past, present and future.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: kland] #127844
09/28/10 03:52 PM
09/28/10 03:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The atheist doesn't understand why God hasn't fully explained to us why He chose to create {beings} even though He knew which ones would sin and rebel and die in the lake of fire. He mistakenly concludes such a God must be cruel and uncaring. I can't imagine what the atheist would conclude about a god who created {beings} knowing some of them might sin and rebel and die in the lake of fire but hoping they wouldn't. I know what I think about such a god.
Quote:
The reasons why Jesus chooses to intervene or not to intervene have not been explained. The facts are, though, that He does indeed choose to intervene or not to intervene. He knows best, even if the atheist despises the whole concept.
So do you think if we basically told the atheist that he was ignorant of his ignorance he would go,
Praise the Lord! I had no idea. I will now be a Christian? Why the difference between the atheist and you? Is it only because you are aware of your ignorance and he isn't? Meaning the solution would be to tell the atheist he is ignorant. With the assumption many, if not most, atheists have reacted in a similar fashion, this could be an outreach tool.

The atheist can only know as much as God has revealed. Not knowing what God hasn't revealed doesn't make the atheist ignorant. The atheist rejects the concept of a god because he hates the idea that such a god chooses not to reveal certain things. He has no need for such a god. Do you agree God hasn't revealed things that cause atheist to reject Him?

Quote:
Quote:
I believe single-threaded, as it relates to the future, means it can play out only one way; whereas, multi-threaded means it can play out many different ways. Since God knows the future like history it means, from His supernatural perspective, He knows the facts before, during, and after the fact. God occupies the past, present, and future simultaneously without destroying the natural flow of time and space. I suspect time and space did not exist prior to Jesus creating free moral agents (as opposed to animals and inanimate nature).
Thanks for explaining that. So if multi-threaded means it can play out in different ways, would that mean God wouldn't know which way it will play out? Otherwise, if God knows the one way it will play out, how could it play out in different ways? Said another way, if God knows which way it will play out, it can, and only can, play out in that one way.

Before I address your comments please answer the following the question - Do you agree time and space did not exist as we know it before God created "free moral agents" (AG 40.4)?

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #127845
09/28/10 03:53 PM
09/28/10 03:53 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Th:That something is true doesnt help you much until you know why it is true and it being true starts making a difference for you.

M:As you know, I trust the SOP the same way I trust the NT. For me, experiencing the truth is more important than discovering it. I feel no need to verify what God has validated in the SOP.


I think Thomas' point is that you can't experience the truth without knowing why it is true, and that it is true makes a difference for you.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #127847
09/28/10 04:37 PM
09/28/10 04:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, since you reject the idea that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously there isn't anything I can say that will make sense to you. Ellen confirms my position:

Quote:
O how little man can comprehend the perfection of God, His omnipresence united with His almighty power. {3SM 311.3}

He sees the end from the beginning. He knows all things. Past, present and future are all clear to Him. {MR926 34.1}

He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}

I Am means an eternal presence; the past, present, and future are alike to God. He sees the most remote events of past history, and the far distant future with as clear a vision as we do those things that are transpiring daily. We know not what is before us, and if we did, it would not contribute to our eternal welfare. God gives us an opportunity to exercise faith and trust in the great I AM (MS 5a, 1895). {1BC 1099.5}

God always has been. He is the great I AM. The psalmist declares, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psalm 90:2. He is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity. "I am the Lord, I change not," He declares. With Him there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. He is "the same yesterday, and to day and for ever." Hebrews 13:8. He is infinite and omnipresent. No words of ours can describe His greatness and majesty. {FLB 42.3}

Worry is blind and cannot discern the future. But Jesus sees the end from the beginning, and He has prepared His way to bring relief. {ChL 77.2}

God counts the things that are not as though they were. He sees the end from the beginning, and beholds the result of His work as though it were now accomplished. {DA 606.1}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}

“Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?” “My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” “I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done.” [Job 11:7; Isaiah 55:8, 9; 46:9, 10.] {GC88 343.3}

God in his providence does not permit us to know the end from the beginning; but he gives us the light of his word to guide us as we pass along, and bids us to keep our minds stayed upon Jesus. {HS 144.1}

If you have given yourself to God, to do His work, you have no need to be anxious for tomorrow. He whose servant you are, knows the end from the beginning. The events of tomorrow, which are hidden from your view, are open to the eyes of Him who is omnipotent. {Pr 226.5}

God knows the end from the beginning. He knew, before the birth of Jacob and Esau, just what characters they would both develop. He knew that Esau would not have a heart to obey him. He answered the troubled prayer of Rebekah, and informed her that she would have two children, and the elder should serve the younger. He presented the future history of her two sons before her, that they would be two nations, the one greater than the other, and the elder should serve the younger. The first-born was entitled to peculiar advantages and special privileges, which belonged to no other members of the family. {1SP 105.2}

He who knows the end from the beginning, and who inspired prophets and apostles to write the future history of churches and of nations, was about to accomplish another reform similar to that of the days of Luther. {4SP 196.1}

He saw the end from the beginning. He saw that men in high places would commit grievous sins, hiding their iniquity under a cloak of godliness. God's throne is clear from reproach. {ST, October 7, 1880 par. 9}

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