The whole purpose of the Plan of Salvation is to restore us to harmony with God (which of course restores us to harmony with His law, being a transcript of His character). The only way possible for us to be restored is to behold the revelation of God in His Son Jesus Christ.

quote:

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[M]an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)

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All that can or needs to be known about God is revealed in Christ. To know God is eternal life.

How soon are we turned out of the way!

Mike, That type of view of the investigative judgment will not get anyone into heaven but will keep everyone out of it. It should be noted that in the type of it on earth, there is not once recorded that anyone was ever condemned; and most of these were not even of faith, but stiff-necked and hard hearted.

The true understanding of the investigative judgment is expressed in:

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

The true investigative judgment that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his, does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of thing so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.

So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word thought and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

I invite all to have a blessed judgment experience with our heavenly Father.

Will, that's a good question. What do you think?

Tom, amen! I also like what the rest of the Bible teaches us about our heavenly Father.

John B., I prefer the explanation of the IJ that Sister White gives in the GC.

Did anybody happen to notice the EGW quotes, posted above, on the relationship between obedience and salvation? What do you think?

Hi Mike,
Well I know that in Daniel when the Kingdom is given to Jesus and He approaches the Ancient of Days that the books were opened. I understand these books to include everyone since sin entered the world up to the close of probation.
However I am understanding that the difference between already judged and an investigative judgment to have different meanings.
an investigation is looking at evidence, records, and things like that which will assist in making a final judgment. Perhaps this is what is meant or referred to the judgment of the righteous and the wicked, that it is no longre an investigation, but a sentence has been pronounced, and the decision is final.
We who are alive can by the grace of God turn from our sins and be reconciled to Him in Jesus Christ, and that judgment is not final until the person either dies or Jesus comes.
So I do believe that being saved is a matter of Faith that God did send His Son to redeem us by His blood (we have been bought and paid for), and by being in Christ meaning abiding in His love, keeping your eyes on Him, that it will result in us doing what Jesus did, and being ambassadors for Christ which in a nutshell is good works, so the 2 are combined together.
I do believe that certain situations are unique for everyone such as the thief on the cross.
God Bless,
Will

That makes sense. Before 1844 no one was investigated or judged. How does this apply to the investigative judgment of the living? When does God begin to investigate and judge the living? And, how does this relate to the topic of this thread?

well the original question here was "It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns".

The way I view that is that it has mostly to do with our intent and with our trying our best to find out the truth and then follow it.

Also I think it has to do with learning the most important lesson and also the most difficult thing for a human being to do, which is to love those who dont love us back. Its easy to love those who love us or who we view as a benefit to us, and so on. But real Christian love has to do with loving because it is right. Not because we will get something out of it.


Matthew 5:
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


We arent going to be perfectly perfectly perfect, because only Jesus is that.


Testimonies for the Church Volume Two, page 549,
He (Jesus) is our pattern. Have you, Brother A, imitated the Pattern? I answer: No. He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. Love for souls for whom Christ died will lead to a denial of self and a willingness to make any sacrifice in order to be co-workers with Christ in the salvation of souls.

I think that God is looking more at what is in the heart.

Faith and Works, page 50, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Faith and Works
When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion.

There is also a passage in the Spirit of Prophecy that says something like this: "When it is in the heart to be a blessing to all those around us then we will have reached perfection". But I cant find the quote right now. Im pretty sure I saw it in Welfare Ministry or Testimony Treasures.

It also says in the Spirit of Prophecy that we cannot be justified if we are doing any known sin.
Jms:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Also, A.T. Jones said that Jesus is going to bring to our awareness sin after sin and each time we ought to decide "I would rather have Jesus than that" and then when He brings up the last sin and we decide to have Jesus rather than the sin, then we will be sealed. There's also an entire chapter on the sealing of God's people, maybe in Testimonies volume 5, that says basically the same thing.


I think sometimes that a lot of Seventh Day Adventists get too caught up in the technicalities of "perfection". Like, how perfect is perfectly perfect perfection?

Its like when Jesus was going through the field with His disciples and ate the grain... and the Pharisees got up set about that and accused him of breaking the Sabbath. Jesus told them havent they read how David when he was hungry broke the "law" ... He declared that in their blindness they had mistaken the object of the Sabbath. He said, "If ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." Matt. 12:7.

Then there are those who seem not to even care about perfection or who think it is necessary. I think they got that idea because they view God in the old testament as "the harsh, heartless legalistic one" and they see Jesus as the "nice forgiving" one. For that reason they shun the idea of perfection because they see God as standing over them with a hammer just waiting for them to mess up. They forget that Jesus said "when you see Me you have seen the Father".

I dont know, it just always seemed to me like people tend go to extremes one way or the other. and they forget God is looking to win the heart and mind.


Mk:12:33: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.


Claudia

Thanks Claudia!

What I was trying to get at in my last message is that it has always seemed to me that lots of Seventh Day Adventists make perfection of character seem an impossibility and they focus on the technicalities until they can end up making people so discouraged that they give up on ever becoming perfect. But if you read some of the things Ellen White and even A.T. Jones say about this subject you will see that it is something we CAN do, and its a matter of deciding we'd rather have Jesus than sin, and that we want to please God in all we do.

"But Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely, and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected.

Let no one say, I cannot remedy my defects of character. If you come to this decision, you will certainly fail of obtaining everlasting life. The impossibility lies in your own will. If you will not, then you can not overcome. The real difficulty arises from the corruption of an unsanctified heart, and an unwillingness to submit to the control of God.

Many whom God has qualified to do excellent work accomplish very little, because they attempt little. Thousands pass through life as if they had no definite object for which to live, no standard to reach. Such will obtain a reward proportionate to their works.

Remember that you will never reach a higher standard than you yourself set. Then set your mark high, and step by step, even though it be by painful effort, by self-denial and sacrifice, ascend the whole length of the ladder of progress. Let nothing hinder you. Fate has not woven its meshes about any human being so firmly that he need remain helpless and in uncertainty. Opposing circumstances should create a firm determination to overcome them. The breaking down of one barrier will give greater ability and courage to go forward. Press with determination in the right direction, and circumstances will be your helpers, not your hindrances.

Be ambitious, for the Master's glory, to cultivate every grace of character. In every phase of your character building you are to please God. This you may do; for Enoch pleased Him though living in a degenerate age. And there are Enochs in this our day." Christ's Object Lessons,331,332


"The cleansing of the sanctuary involves a purging from sin. Sins will be brought up to the surface for the believers to realize, and then they must decide to give up that sin. This work is done by Jesus from the Most Holy Place, and we are to cooperate with Him in this work:

“He (Christ) gave Himself for our sins; but... He will not take our sins—although He bought them—without our permission. The choice is forever with me as to whether I would rather have my sins than to have Him, isn’t it? Then from this time henceforth can there be any hesitation about letting anything go that God shows us is sin? Will you let it go when it is pointed out? When sin is pointed out to you, say, ‘I would rather have Christ than that,’ and let it go. Just tell the Lord, ‘Lord, I make the choice now; I make the trade; I make thee my choice; it is gone, and I have something better.’... Where in the world is the opportunity for any of us to get discouraged over our sins?

“Now some of the brethren have done that very thing. They came here free; but the Spirit of God brought up something they never saw before; and then, instead of thanking the Lord that that was so, and letting the whole wicked business go, and thanking the Lord that they had ever so much of Him than they ever had before, they began to get discouraged. They said ‘Oh what am I going to do? My sins are so great.’...

“If the Lord has brought up sins to us that we never thought of before, that only shows that He is going down to the depths, and He will reach the bottom at last; and when He finds the last thing that is unclean or impure, and brings that up, and shows that to us, and we say, ‘I would rather have the Lord than that,’ then the work is complete, and the Seal of the living God can be fixed upon that character.” A.T Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin pages 404,405.

Thank you Claudia for your comments; to ensure true understanding of those comments, or rather, to prevent them from being misunderstood, we need to have it established in our minds and hearts that it is “not I but Christ”.

No amount of self-assessment, or goals, or ambitions, or effort will ever achieve God’s purpose for us or in us.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is genuine real life change of heart and mind in which we are as the willing apprentices with the master, while at the same time we are the project of his work.

In order for his work to be done in us, so that we may be his workmanship, we need to allow him into our hearts and minds by genuine faith. Therefore:

The true investigative judgment, that we need to know all about, has to do with us receiving God’s judgment over ours in genuine faith today. It is only for the living. It is happening right now; and if you are not participating you have no salvation. It is us, in genuine faith, letting God search our hearts and minds, allowing him to teach us in his way. A faith which believes in salvation without the exchange of my righteousness for his does not save. We can only exchange our righteousness for his by receiving his judgment. Genuine faith surrenders our view of things so that it can view all things through his eyes and spirit.

So the investigative judgment is nothing less than us receiving the mind of Christ in every word, thought, and action. It is also nothing more than that. Investigative judgment means nothing less and nothing more than “Not I but Christ” which is genuine faith. It is not God’s magnifier over our conduct. It is God’s salvation of our hearts and minds which bears the peaceable fruit of righteousness. It is a wonderful growing experience of genuine faith. Those who receive it in this way shall never fear any judgment. They have his mind.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

“This work is done by Jesus from the Most Holy Place, and we are to cooperate with Him in this work”

We are to be as those that can be instructed by him and learn from him, those that can view things through his eyes, and delight to do his will, and those that participate with God in his work.

We are not to be as those that have no understanding, who think that God has to tug at their flesh; change their feelings and emotions so that they will feel like doing what he says, while they continue to live by their flesh-carnal mind (feelings, emotions, desires, etc). These often think that they are hypocrites if they do not feel like doing what they ought. They have not learned what it means to live by the spirit and not by the carnal mind which is at enmity with God.

The pattern of feelings and desires that have been written and engraved by man’s hand in the carnal will change in time as we live by the spirit. But, whether there is time for them to change or not, is irrelevant (they will change at the resurrection), we are not judged by these or subject to these. Character does not consist of the harmony of the flesh with the spirit, but rather the staying power to do what you ought regardless of how you feel. So, as Paul says, we have no obligation to live by the flesh but by the spirit. Genuine faith does not listen to the flesh to obey it, but to the Lord.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I invite all to have a blessed judgment experience with our heavenly Father.

Shalom