M: Tom, do you believe God is everywhere simultaneously?

T: I believe God is omnipresent. I don't think saying "simultaneously" adds anything.

M: If so, does it mean space does not exist?

T: Time would not exist if the past, present and future were simultaneous. You're really mixing things up here (I'm meaning, mixing different concepts together). If you want to come up with a space analogy, "simultaneous" isn't the way to go about that. It would be a bit tricky, but it would have to involve something analogous, like saying that all of space exists in only one point. So if you made an assertion which was equivalent to that, then one could rightly conclude that space does not exist.

M: I'm talking about space - not time. Please reread my comments and questions thus far (this post).

T: I know, and your question didn't make sense, which I was trying to explain. That is, you asked, "If so, does it mean space does not exist?" Your thinking, in asking this question, was that if what I said was true, that time would not exist if the past, present and future existed simultaneously, then why wouldn't the same be true of space. But for this question to make sense, you'd have to have something analogous to simultaneality, for want of a better term, that would apply to space, as well as some way of linking space that would be analogous to how time is linked.

M: How can God be everywhere at once? Is He everywhere at once throughout the Universe? Or, just on earth?

T: Everywhere.

M: And, does it mean God is an immaterial (non-physical) entity?

T: What is "it"?

M: By "it" I mean the fact God is omnipresent. Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around.

T: Not necessarily. The atmosphere, which is physical, exists, and it doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching the planet. However, John 4 tells us that God is a spirit (or "God is spirit").

M: Can time and space exist independent of one another? Or, are they inseparably tied together?

T: It really depends upon how you define things. But, in terms of our discussion, they key point I've been making is that events are sequential, and this is true for God as well.

M: So, according to your view, God is limited to experiencing time like us. Is that correct?

T: No. I've said that God experiences time, and His communications to us reflect this.

M: By "class of people" do you mean God does not know hundreds of years in advance specifically who will legislate and enforce Sunday laws?

T: He knows all the possible ways this can happen. For example, as early as 1859 EGW wrote that Christ could have come. Had He come then, God knows how this would have happened. Christ could have come in the 1888 era. Things were actually starting to happen then, and God knew what would have happened. Similarly for any time when it was or has been or will be possible for Christ's coming.

M: I'm not sure how your response answers my question. Are you saying God does not know exactly who (the actual individuals) will be involved in legislating and enforcing Sunday laws, and that He doesn't precisely when it will happen?

T: If Christ could have come at different times, then there could not be one time when Christ could come. That would be a contradiction. If there is not one specific time when Christ can come, then God cannot know that as a fact. God can only know as facts things that are facts. So is it a fact that Christ could have come before now? If so, then God knew that. So God knows all the times that Christ could/can possibly come.

T:I know, and your question didn't make sense, which I was trying to explain. That is, you asked, "If so, does it mean space does not exist?" Your thinking, in asking this question, was that if what I said was true, that time would not exist if the past, present and future existed simultaneously, then why wouldn't the same be true of space. But for this question to make sense, you'd have to have something analogous to simultaneality, for want of a better term, that would apply to space, as well as some way of linking space that would be analogous to how time is linked.

M:Space and time, though two different things, are inseparably linked.

M: By "it" I mean the fact God is omnipresent. Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around.

T: Not necessarily. The atmosphere, which is physical, exists, and it doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching the planet. However, John 4 tells us that God is a spirit (or "God is spirit").

M:We are made in the image and likeness of God. He looks like us. Jesus told Ellen in vision that He and the Father have similar forms. But I hear you saying, no, the Father has a form like the atmosphere.

Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around.

Do you envision yourself going to heaven and meeting the Father face to face and sitting on His lap enveloped in His warm, loving arms?

T: No. I've said that God experiences time, and His communications to us reflect this.

M:Does God experience time like us and unlike us? If so, in what ways does God experience time differently than we do? Or, does He experience time in exactly the same way we do or like angels do?

M: By "class of people" do you mean God does not know hundreds of years in advance specifically who will legislate and enforce Sunday laws?

T: He knows all the possible ways this can happen. For example, as early as 1859 EGW wrote that Christ could have come. Had He come then, God knows how this would have happened. Christ could have come in the 1888 era. Things were actually starting to happen then, and God knew what would have happened. Similarly for any time when it was or has been or will be possible for Christ's coming.

M: I'm not sure how your response answers my question. Are you saying God does not know exactly who (the actual individuals) will be involved in legislating and enforcing Sunday laws, and that He doesn't precisely when it will happen?

T: If Christ could have come at different times, then there could not be one time when Christ could come. That would be a contradiction. If there is not one specific time when Christ can come, then God cannot know that as a fact. God can only know as facts things that are facts. So is it a fact that Christ could have come before now? If so, then God knew that. So God knows all the times that Christ could/can possibly come.

M:Again, I'm not sure how your response answers my question. Are you saying God does not know exactly who (the actual individuals) will be involved in legislating and enforcing Sunday laws, and that He doesn't know precisely when it will happen? Or, are you saying God knows exactly who and when for all the different times it could have happened and when it will happen?

T: I know, and your question didn't make sense, which I was trying to explain. That is, you asked, "If so, does it mean space does not exist?" Your thinking, in asking this question, was that if what I said was true, that time would not exist if the past, present and future existed simultaneously, then why wouldn't the same be true of space. But for this question to make sense, you'd have to have something analogous to simultaneality, for want of a better term, that would apply to space, as well as some way of linking space that would be analogous to how time is linked.

M: Space and time, though two different things, are inseparably linked.

T: Because they are different things, as you correctly point out, what one says regarding one cannot necessarily regarding the other, which is what I was getting at.

M: By "it" I mean the fact God is omnipresent. Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around.

T: Not necessarily. The atmosphere, which is physical, exists, and it doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching the planet. However, John 4 tells us that God is a spirit (or "God is spirit").

M: We are made in the image and likeness of God. He looks like us. Jesus told Ellen in vision that He and the Father have similar forms. But I hear you saying, no, the Father has a form like the atmosphere.

T: Above you wrote: "Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around." You are arguing that if God were physical, He would prevent the sunlight from reaching the planet, etc. However, I pointed out this was false reasoning because the atmosphere is physical, and it doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching the planet.

M: Do you envision yourself going to heaven and meeting the Father face to face and sitting on His lap enveloped in His warm, loving arms?

T: How does this question fit with the topic? We were speaking of time. I was making the point that events are sequential, even for God. I'm not sure if you agree with this or not. If God exists simultaneously in the past, present and future, then one would think that would mean He does not experience events sequentially.

T: No. I've said that God experiences time, and His communications to us reflect this.

M: Does God experience time like us and unlike us? If so, in what ways does God experience time differently than we do? Or, does He experience time in exactly the same way we do or like angels do?

T: The key way that God experiences time like we do, in terms of our conversation, is that He experiences events sequentially. That is, for God, as well as for us, a person is born, then lives, and then dies, in that order. Since God is eternal, that would surely impact His experience of time. For example, for God, a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

M: By "class of people" do you mean God does not know hundreds of years in advance specifically who will legislate and enforce Sunday laws?

T: He knows all the possible ways this can happen. For example, as early as 1859 EGW wrote that Christ could have come. Had He come then, God knows how this would have happened. Christ could have come in the 1888 era. Things were actually starting to happen then, and God knew what would have happened. Similarly for any time when it was or has been or will be possible for Christ's coming.

M: I'm not sure how your response answers my question. Are you saying God does not know exactly who (the actual individuals) will be involved in legislating and enforcing Sunday laws, and that He doesn't precisely when it will happen?

T: If Christ could have come at different times, then there could not be one time when Christ could come. That would be a contradiction. If there is not one specific time when Christ can come, then God cannot know that as a fact. God can only know as facts things that are facts. So is it a fact that Christ could have come before now? If so, then God knew that. So God knows all the times that Christ could/can possibly come.

M: Again, I'm not sure how your response answers my question. Are you saying God does not know exactly who (the actual individuals) will be involved in legislating and enforcing Sunday laws, and that He doesn't know precisely when it will happen? Or, are you saying God knows exactly who and when for all the different times it could have happened and when it will happen?

T: The first response above, in this blocked section, answers your question. Christ could have come at different times. Depending on which time Christ came (or will come), the specific individuals will be different, but as a class they share the same characteristics. For example, if God were certain that Christ would come in 2050, say, then God would have been equally certain that Christ could not have come before 1859, in which case EGW's statement would have been incorrect. To put it the other way around, if EGW's statement is correct that Christ could have come before 1859, then it cannot be the case that God was always eternally certain that this would not happen.

Had Adventists, after the great disappointment in 1844, held fast their faith, and followed on unitedly in the opening providence of God, receiving the message of the third angel and in the power of the Holy Spirit proclaiming it to the world, they would have seen the salvation of God, the Lord would have wrought mightily with their efforts, the work would have been completed, and Christ would have come ere this to receive His people to their reward. Manuscript 4, 1883 {Ev 696.2}

Not sure what you're asking here.

If multi-threaded means it can play out in different ways, but yet God knows which way it plays out, then wouldn't it be playing out in one way, that is, single-threaded? I think what you are trying to say is that all the following could be true but you chose one of them to be true:

• Single threaded - God does not know the future.
• Single threaded - God does know the future.
• Multi-threaded - God does not know the future.
• Multi-threaded - God does know the future.

I didn't follow where you say that you believe it does make a difference that God knows the future like history and then you say His knowing does not alter nor changes nothing.

T: I know, and your question didn't make sense, which I was trying to explain. That is, you asked, "If so, does it mean space does not exist?" Your thinking, in asking this question, was that if what I said was true, that time would not exist if the past, present and future existed simultaneously, then why wouldn't the same be true of space. But for this question to make sense, you'd have to have something analogous to simultaneality, for want of a better term, that would apply to space, as well as some way of linking space that would be analogous to how time is linked.

M: Space and time, though two different things, are inseparably linked.

T: Because they are different things, as you correctly point out, what one says regarding one cannot necessarily regarding the other, which is what I was getting at.

M:The are inseparably linked. It sounds like you are saying they can be unlinked.

T: Above you wrote: "Since God is everywhere at once does it mean He is non-physical? Otherwise, how can He be physically present everywhere at once? Such a physical presence would prevent sunlight from reaching the planet, and anything else on earth from moving around." You are arguing that if God were physical, He would prevent the sunlight from reaching the planet, etc. However, I pointed out this was false reasoning because the atmosphere is physical, and it doesn't prevent sunlight from reaching the planet.

M:I believe God has a physical form and that even He is omnipresent it does not interfere with natural law and in particular it does not prevent sunlight from reaching our planet. I do not believe God has a physical form like atmosphere. I believe He has a physical form like Jesus. The SOP confirms it:

"I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

M:Please answer my question. Do you envision yourself going to heaven and meeting the Father face to face and sitting on His lap enveloped in His warm, loving arms? Your answer matters to me.

Regarding your question, yes, I believe God experiences time sequentially.

T: The key way that God experiences time like we do, in terms of our conversation, is that He experiences events sequentially. That is, for God, as well as for us, a person is born, then lives, and then dies, in that order. Since God is eternal, that would surely impact His experience of time. For example, for God, a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day.

M:In what sense is 1 day and 1000 years equal?

Also, I assume you apply this idea to the past and present but not to the future since you believe the future hasn't happened yet (not even for God because He experiences time sequentially the same as us).

T: The first response above, in this blocked section, answers your question. Christ could have come at different times. Depending on which time Christ came (or will come), the specific individuals will be different, but as a class they share the same characteristics. For example, if God were certain that Christ would come in 2050, say, then God would have been equally certain that Christ could not have come before 1859, in which case EGW's statement would have been incorrect. To put it the other way around, if EGW's statement is correct that Christ could have come before 1859, then it cannot be the case that God was always eternally certain that this would not happen.

M:Do I have your permission, then, to conclude you believe, no, God has no idea whatsoever who will legislate and enforce Sunday laws or when it will happen?

Are you saying, God merely knows it will happen some day and nothing more?

Also, are you suggesting the fact Ellen wrote Jesus could have come ere this that it implies God does not know the exact day and hour Jesus will return?

Would it follow that Christ could not have come before then?


Not sure what you're asking here.

You said, "For example, as early as 1859 EGW wrote that Christ could have come."
Meaning to me that as early as 1859. Otherwise she may have written before then about Him coming or about Him coming before then. Not absolute, but isn't it a correct assumption?

If God knew that Christ was not coming until after 2000, obviously God would have known Christ wasn't coming before 1859, in which case what EGW wrote would have been incorrect. That's clear, isn't it?

In 1859 she wrote that Christ could have come before now, meaning that Christ could have come before the time that she wrote this, which would be before 1859.