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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12815
03/26/05 04:33 AM
03/26/05 04:33 AM
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Active Member 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
Consulting a dictionary I got this definition.
afflict; to distress grievously: to harass:
afflicted; harassed by disease of body or mind: suffering
afflicting; distressing
affliction; state or cause of grievous distress
afflictive; causing distress
grievous => grieve
grieve; to cause gref or pain of mind to: to make sorrowful
Is this what God wishes for us? If this is Gods plan for mankind, what does that do to the great controversy theme? What could the devil add to destroy Gods character than the claim that God wishes for his people to be harassed by grief?
/Thomas
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12816
03/25/05 05:17 PM
03/25/05 05:17 PM
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quote:
John, do you mean to say we are judged now? that we are sinless now? Are you referring to the IJ? or a different judgment? to actual sinlessness? or legal sinlessness?
Mike: do you mean to say we are judged now?
John: Yes, now. Now is the day of Salvation.
Mike: that we are sinless now?
John: Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. This is precisely the point. You cannot say that you have faith in God, or that you live by faith, if you cannot trust him enough to receive his thoughts and judgment of you today. Which aspect of your life do you not wish to lay at his feet in faith; that he may resolve it for you? Which aspect of your life do you wish to resolve before you let him give you his judgment of you? Which aspect of his thought and judgment do you not want to be yours now? 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace.
Mike: Are you referring to the IJ?
John: I am referring to his ministry of the MHP.
Mike: or a different judgment?
John: It is likely quite different than what you may understand it to be.
Mike: to actual sinlessness? or legal sinlessness?
John: To complete reconciliation of your heart, mind and spirit with God; to a living genuine faith, rejoicing in the glory of the Father; to the indwelling of his spirit in you. No, no make-believe sinless ness.
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
How will he do this without us receiving his thoughts and judgment?
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12817
03/25/05 07:19 PM
03/25/05 07:19 PM
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quote:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12818
03/25/05 07:29 PM
03/25/05 07:29 PM
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John, I appreciate the idea that we are truly sinless in Christ, both legally and really, now, today. But I suspect, like you, that we are using the word “judgment” in a very different ways. Before I say any more let me ask this question, Do you agree with the traditional SDA doctrine regarding the IJ? The way it’s described in the GC?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12819
03/25/05 08:16 PM
03/25/05 08:16 PM
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Mike: Do you agree with the traditional SDA doctrine regarding the IJ? The way it’s described in the GC?
John: The question is, do you understand it the way it is? Has the Great Controversy been settled in your heart?
Shalom
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12820
03/25/05 10:02 PM
03/25/05 10:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
quote:
Thomas, how do you define afflicting your soul? And, how does it relate to the topic of this thread? Is it possible to overcome every single defective trait of character? If so, when?
Mike, I dont have any personal relationship with the word "afflict", therefor the dictionary version will have to do.
At first I thought maybe the text you quoted was out of context or alike, but reading the entire chapter it shows that the theme is indeed fear. Be very affraid of dying at the wrong time... Worry about not doing enough, or doing the wrong things. Whatever happened to the light yoke?
Hmm, you saw fit to edit that part out of the quote. Wonder why...
Afflict ones soul like the people mourned over sin under the atonement sermon in israel for this entire period. Would that mean that everyone who has lived between 1844 until now and to the day that Jesus returns again have been expected to "be haunted with the fear of sin" and "mourn" over it for all their days? 4-5 generations of constant mourning and anguish over sins commited?
Yet the chapter also contains:
The book of life contains the names of all who have ever entered the service of God. Jesus bade His disciples: "Rejoice,
481
because your names are written in heaven." Luke 10:20. Paul speaks of his faithful fellow workers, "whose names are in the book of life." Philippians 4:3. Daniel, looking down to "a time of trouble, such as never was," declares that God's people shall be delivered, "everyone that shall be found written in the book." And the revelator says that those only shall enter the city of God whose names "are written in the Lamb's book of life." Daniel 12:1; Revelation 21:27.
482
The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgment. Says the wise man: "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment." Ecclesiastes 12:13, 14. The apostle James admonishes his brethren: "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty." James 2:12
Jesus will appear as their advocate, to plead in their behalf before God. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us." "Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 9:24; 7:25.
498 2 (complete)
"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." Proverbs 28:13. If those who hide and excuse their faults could see how Satan exults over them, how he taunts Christ and holy angels with their course, they would make haste to confess their sins and to put them away. Through defects in the character, Satan works to gain control of the whole mind, and he knows that if these defects are cherished, he will succeed. Therefore he is constantly seeking to deceive the followers of Christ with his fatal sophistry that it is impossible for them to overcome. But Jesus pleads in their behalf His wounded hands, His bruised body; and He declares to all who would follow Him: "My grace is sufficient for thee." 2 Corinthians 12:9. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Matthew 11:29, 30. Let none, then, regard their defects as incurable. God will give faith and grace to overcome them.
I think I see more now where you are coming from here, for if this chapter is what one bases ones belief upon only, then one would believe that God is only able to save a person who has first done everything in his power to #1 not sin #2 remember and ask for forgiveness if he would yet sin #3 not a single time fail in steps 1 and 2 for such a single time would mean everything would be in vain.
How this blends with this following quote
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”
I would like to know.
Now to your two last questions. If you set out on a mission to never ever sin again for as long as you live, though you would live an endless number of days you would not succeed in your task. And though you would live without sin from this day forward, this would bring you not one step closer to heavens gates for you could not in this way earn points to repay yesterdays debt.
If you instead set out on a mission to get as close to Jesus as possible, let Him carry your burden of sin, worry and pain trough prayer. Then is your goal not already achived for aslong as your mission would continue.
I would like to illustrate with a simple example. Try not to think about yellow elephants for the next 5 minutes. Did you succeed? If so, how?
/Thomas
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12821
03/25/05 10:31 PM
03/25/05 10:31 PM
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John, I'll take that answer as a Yes. According to the GC (the book by EGW) the investigative judgment doesn't start until after someone dies or, in the case of the 144,000, after the sunday laws are enforced and before probation closes.
How do you relate this information to the topic of this thread?
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12822
03/25/05 10:44 PM
03/25/05 10:44 PM
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Thomas, I'm not sure I understand what it means to afflict my soul during the day of atonement, but I suspect it includes many things, one of them being fear. I truly believe if my case were to come before God, right now, for investigation I would pass with flying colors. Why? Jesus is my Advocate and Judge. And, because I am doing everything in my power to cooperate with the Holy Spirit to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Think of how all the patriarchs and prophets shook with fear in the presence of God. It seems unavoidable.
Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Hebrews
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12823
03/25/05 11:22 PM
03/25/05 11:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Think of how all the patriarchs and prophets shook with fear in the presence of God. It seems unavoidable.
Abraham argued over the the end of Sodom, Jacob demanded a blessing, Moses tried to excuse his way out of Gods plan the first time and later several times argued with God in such way that God changed his mind, Eliah complained over bad working conditions and meager results. All these examples in discussion with God in OT. There isnt any lack of examples from the NT either.
Philippians
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
Cont: 14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out the word of life–in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing. 17But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.
Hebrews 10
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another–and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
Hebrews
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Continues after a jump:
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
Ecclesiastes
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif) verse 12 says: "Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body." which is true but a wholy different question.
/Thomas
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Re: It is impossible to completely overcome before Jesus returns!
#12824
03/26/05 01:25 AM
03/26/05 01:25 AM
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quote:
John, I'll take that answer as a Yes. According to the GC (the book by EGW) the investigative judgment doesn't start until after someone dies or, in the case of the 144,000, after the sunday laws are enforced and before probation closes.
How do you relate this information to the topic of this thread?
I believe I have well stated how Christ’s ministry of the MHP, and as related to the IJ, has to do with this thread.
As far as the above version of the IJ (judgment of the dead or the 144,000), I see no relevance to this thread for a number of reasons.
The dead cannot sin so they needn't overcome any, so likewise they need not worry about having any known defects. The corpses would have a hard time of afflicting their souls, and I do not see why they should unless you believe in purgatory. I also do not know what Christ would be ministering in the MHP about the dead, unless it was some masses or some such. I hope I am not sounding sacrilegious here. In terms of the 144,000, well, they are a special breed which most of us do not qualify since the Sunday laws are not in effect, and that means by the way that none of the living are being judged yet so what is the point of afflicting our souls since God is not paying any attention to us while he is so busy about the dead. And perhaps some will take that to mean that it is alright if they still have some sin; for the time for sinless ness has not arrived. (please do not implicate anything I have said here with EW)
I am sorry Mike; the ministry of Christ in the MHP is for the Living and is the work of Salvation. It is going on right now and it is for you and me. Afflicting your soul will not help very much at all, but receiving his judgment in faith will do wonders.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;
[ March 25, 2005, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: John Boskovic ]
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