It seems that way. I believe God exists out of time and in time and that it has zero effect on time. Time unfolds as if God knows nothing about the future even though in reality He knows precisely how it played out. He knows the end from the beginning. I realize you believe this is impossible because you believe the future doesn't exist. He knows the future like history without making it single-threaded or multi-threaded. Nothing He knows changes the nature or essence of time.

Are you suggesting God knows thousands of possible "day and hour" dates, but He doesn't know precisely which one it will be? "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Regarding the exact "day and hour" Ellen wrote:


I hear you saying these kinds of passages, of which there are many, must be interpreted to mean God does not know the precise day and hour Jesus will return.

Why do you think it seems this way?

There are to aspects to consider in this question; one an ontological one (what things are like), and one epistemological (what one knows things to be like). Nobody has suggested that the latter impacts the former, and to even think so doesn't make sense. Yet you keep making this point, in virtually every post. I don't understand why.



I think everyone would agree with this, although God's existing out of time is a meaningless concept as far as we are concerned.



When you say "time unfolds" I assume you mean "things happen in time" as opposed to, for example, time speeding up or slowing down. Assuming I've understood you correctly, what you're asserting isn't true, because God acts in time; that is, He does things, and the things He does impacts the things which happen in time.

Your above sentence doesn't appear to make sense to me. Perhaps you could restate it?



We've been having this conversation for years, and I have asserted many times that God knows the end from the beginning. So why are you saying this?

Regarding the future existing or not existing, what do you mean? I guess you're asserting that you believe the future exists, whereas I don't. What do you mean by this? Please answer this, as I'm very interested in what you meant by this.



You haven't understood the point. God's knowing the future to be a certain way doesn't make it be a certain way in terms of *causing* it to be that way, as if God's knowing something changes its essence. That, of course, and obviously, makes no sense. God's knows things as they are. God's knowing the future to be like history would "make" it be single-threaded in the sense that the only way God could know it to be like history is if it were like history. Now since history is single-threaded, that would make the future single-threaded as well.



Right. Of course not. And, again, one can only wonder why you think this is a point that needs to be made, repeatedly in one post, despite the fact that it's been pointed out to you over and over and over again that this is not an issue. Please explain why you are thinking this is an issue.

It seems clear to me that there is something being missed in terms of communication. It appears to me that what I'm writing is clear, yet your comments indicate that you're hearing things I'm not saying.

God knowing the future like history has no effect whatsoever on the nature or essence of the future or on how time and events unfold. His knowledge of the past, present, and future does not make the future "fixed". Only God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. Again, I realize you believe this is impossible. But just assume for the sake of discussion it is true, do you see how what I'm saying about the future not being fixed is true? God's knowledge of the future is based on His ability to exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously.

I'm guessing you responded to this without having read the post I last posted. Anyway, I hope so.



Same comment. Please read my last post.



I didn't say I believe this is impossible. I said I don't believe this is true. These are two different things.

What I said was that the only way that God could simultaneously exist in the past, present, and future is if the past, present and future exist simultaneously.



The real question that needs to be considered is, what is reality? Is it the case that the past, present, and future really exist simultaneously? If this is the case, then I agree with what you're writing; that is, what you are writing would logically follow from this assumption. However, I don't agree that the past, present, and future exist simultaneously; I believe they are sequential.

Why do you keep repeating this? It's getting annoying. Tom has repeated his response to that and you never address it. Who do you think is saying that if God knows the future it has an affect on it?

Tom, maybe he's saying that he thinks you're saying God's knowing the future affects the future by not affecting it. That is, by God knowing the future causes people not to be able to change it. I don't see you saying that, but maybe he does?

I found this in September's Adventist World from Angel Manuel Rodriguez:
So MM, we have the atheist expressing free choice as only an illusion and an adventist writer expressing the same regarding if God knew exactly what choices we are going to make. Is Rodriguez as non-understanding as the atheist regarding his ignorance of his ignorance and if we told him he simply was ignorant that he was ignorant, Rodriguez along with the atheist would cease seeing a problem with a fixed future being a problem?

But God can, and does, know the future like history without making it single-threaded or multi-threaded. That's the point. Time unfolds (things happen sequentially) as if God knows nothing about the future. You appear to agree with this.


You interpret God knowing the "end from the beginning" differently than I do. You believe it means He knows all the different ways the future can play out but doesn't know precisely which one will play out. Whereas, I believe it means God stands at the end of time and looks backward to the beginning of time and knows everything in between. He knows exactly how the future will play out because He exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. Human history has already played out. Everybody from Adam to the last person has already lived and died. They are already spending eternity in the New Earth.

I also believe time happens sequentially. It's just that I also believe eternity has already played out and God alone knows "the end from the beginning". I'm glad you think my view of God and time is logical (assuming the assumption is true).