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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128356
10/25/10 04:01 PM
10/25/10 04:01 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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God knows the exact day and hour Jesus will return. The reason He knows is because He exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. This idea isn't Scriptural. There are hundreds of texts, if not thousands, where God communicates to us in language that indicates that He experiences things sequentially, not simultaneously. For example, here's one I've quoted a number of times: At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.(Jer. 18) This simply makes no sense in the scenario you are suggesting, where things have already played out. God couldn't change His mind in this case.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128357
10/25/10 04:03 PM
10/25/10 04:03 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Kland, your observations seem to assume God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously somehow robs us of our ability and freedom to choose as we please. MM, this makes no sense. Could you explain your thinking please? Once again, if God exists simultaneously in the past, present, and future, then the past, present and future exist simultaneously, and time is not sequential, and of course that would impact us. How could it not?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128362
10/25/10 08:54 PM
10/25/10 08:54 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, your limited view of God prevents you from understanding my view. You don't seem to comprehend that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting how we experience time.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128363
10/25/10 08:58 PM
10/25/10 08:58 PM
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SDA
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Again, I am convinced God's experience in time and space has no effect on our experience in time and space. It would have an effect if we thought about it. If we're willingly ignorant about logic, then it might not. We have the ability and freedom to make any choice we please. Nothing hinders us. Nothing hinders from doing what you please, but you couldn't choose anything different than that. That is, there's only one choice possible, which is the one that has "already played out." I'm glad you agree we are free to choose as we please. So, what's the problem? So what if God knows the future like history?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128366
10/25/10 09:38 PM
10/25/10 09:38 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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1.If God knows the future like history, then
2.The future is like history, meaning its single-threaded, and
3.Nothing we can do will impact the future.
The last item means we do not have free will in the libertarian sense. Your question was asked from the compatibilistic standpoint, which assumes a less strict definition of "free will." For those who accept this less strict definition, there isn't a problem, regarding the question of "free will."
However, other questions would remain, such as the problem of evil. E.g., Why would God create a being (Lucifer) He was certain would sin when He could just as well have created a being (someone else) He was certain would not sin? Same questions for Adam and Eve.
Simply quoting a statement from EGW that says that God would establish His throne in righteousness doesn't even begin to address the question being asked here.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128367
10/25/10 09:42 PM
10/25/10 09:42 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, your limited view of God prevents you from understanding my view. Actually, as I've explained on quite a few occasions, one's view of God isn't what matters. It's one view of the future that is relevant here. Is the future settled or not? Your view of God only matters in that it leads to the conclusion that the future is settled. E.g., you state that the future has "already played out." Given that the future has already played out, we may conclude that it's single-threaded, and consider the implications of that. You don't seem to comprehend that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting how we experience time. This is a false statement. I comprehend that. As I've explained, if God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously -- if the future has "already played out," (as you put it), that means the future is settled, which impacts how we experience time, if we care about logic.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128375
10/26/10 01:46 PM
10/26/10 01:46 PM
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Midland
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Kland, your observations seem to assume God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously somehow robs us of our ability and freedom to choose as we please.
Here is what I here you saying, correct me if I'm wrong because I am basing my comments on this understanding: - God knows the future like history, like it's already played out.
- We know the future as sequential, as with the ability to make choices in how it's played out.
Now, would it be worth considering that only one of those is what the future really is like? That is, either: the future really is like history and has already played out and we are under the illusion that we can make choices, or the future really is sequential and we can make choices affecting it while God is under the illusion that it has already played out. There is only one truth as to which way it is. Then again, I'm not really sure what you believe because although you say God knows the future like history, you at the same time state that "God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously" which I cannot see how that could mean that God knows the future like history if it all exists at the same time.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128379
10/26/10 02:22 PM
10/26/10 02:22 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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It's not simply that God knows the future like history, like it's already played out, but MM says that it HAS played out. ...I also believe eternity has already played out and God alone knows "the end from the beginning".(emphasis mine) This is the real crux of the problem. It's not simply that God knows the future as if it's played out, but *it's already played out*. That makes it completely settled.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128386
10/26/10 03:42 PM
10/26/10 03:42 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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1.If God knows the future like history, then
2.The future is like history, meaning its single-threaded, and
3.Nothing we can do will impact the future.
The last item means we do not have free will in the libertarian sense. Your question was asked from the compatibilistic standpoint, which assumes a less strict definition of "free will." For those who accept this less strict definition, there isn't a problem, regarding the question of "free will."
However, other questions would remain, such as the problem of evil. E.g., Why would God create a being (Lucifer) He was certain would sin when He could just as well have created a being (someone else) He was certain would not sin? Same questions for Adam and Eve. Simply quoting a statement from EGW that says that God would establish His throne in righteousness doesn't even begin to address the question being asked here. Why do you say it means we cannot impact the future? Do you mean we cannot make choices resulting in an outcome different than the one God watched play out? Do you think God's experience in time effects (alters, changes) our experience in time? Also, do you think God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously means He is cruel because He created certain FMAs even though He watched them sin and die in the lake of fire? If so, what makes you think not creating them was an option?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128387
10/26/10 03:52 PM
10/26/10 03:52 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Southwest USA
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M: Tom, your limited view of God prevents you from understanding my view.
T: Actually, as I've explained on quite a few occasions, one's view of God isn't what matters. It's one view of the future that is relevant here. Is the future settled or not? Your view of God only matters in that it leads to the conclusion that the future is settled. E.g., you state that the future has "already played out." Given that the future has already played out, we may conclude that it's single-threaded, and consider the implications of that. Again, are you suggesting God's experience in time effects (alters, changes) our experience in time? If so, why do you think so? Or, do you agree with me that it makes no difference whatsoever, that is, time unfolds as if God is limited to time and space in exactly the same way we are. M: You don't seem to comprehend that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting how we experience time.
T: This is a false statement. I comprehend that. As I've explained, if God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously -- if the future has "already played out," (as you put it), that means the future is settled, which impacts how we experience time, if we care about logic. What if you are wrong? What if time unfolds for us as if God does not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously? Why do you think God's experience in time effects, alters, changes our experience in time? Why do you think it's impossible for God to exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously without it effecting, altering, changing how we experience time?
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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