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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128403
10/26/10 11:47 PM
10/26/10 11:47 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". This should read: Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128404
10/26/10 11:51 PM
10/26/10 11:51 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding #128382, your response was completely unresponsive. Please read my post and respond to the question I asked.
Regarding your question, "Also, what is the relationship between sinning and being burned alive? How is it not arbitrary?" the principle involved, according to what I understand, is, as I've explained, precisely that of GC 36. So if GC 36 is not arbitrary, than neither is this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128405
10/26/10 11:57 PM
10/26/10 11:57 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:The sentence right before the one you quoted says:
EGW:Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble.
T:"Final trouble" makes clear this is referencing the last plagues. ("final trouble" = "last plagues").
M:I disagree. "Final trouble" includes evil angels influencing evil men and working through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. That's OK, if this is understood to include the last plagues. The last plagues are "last," which is the same as "final." You can't have a "final trouble" happening before the "last" plagues, or the "final trouble" wouldn't be "final." It would be "before final," or "not final." That's the context of the passage, namely, "human passion". "Human passion" isn't the context of the passage. The passage is talking about what happens when Christ stops interceding in the Most Holy Place. The Seven Last Plagues happen. Elsewhere Ellen goes on to compare the plagues of Egypt and the seven last plagues. Are you saying such plagues occurred in 70 AD? What? What kind of question is this? Also, God says, "I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." What do you make of this insight? I think it's a warning from God. It's not literal. God won't literally laugh and mock the lost. I hope this isn't what you think.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128410
10/27/10 11:16 AM
10/27/10 11:16 AM
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Posts: 6,494
Midland
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Kland, I agree with Tom's clarification of my belief in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". It doesn't matter if He withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to cause death and destruction, or if He commands holy angels, holy men, or evil men and nations to cause death and destruction, or if He acts unilaterally to cause death and destruction - the end result is the same, namely, sinners are punished. In some cases they are burned alive. A question that hasn't been answered yet is - How is it not arbitrary? What is not arbitrary about them being burned alive? There is no natural cause and effect relationship between the sins they committed and being punished by being burned alive. Never mind who did it, that is, who burned them alive. I had asked, why do you find this as being a "Strange Act". Could you help me understand how this answers that question?
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128419
10/27/10 03:18 PM
10/27/10 03:18 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".
T: This should read: "Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". Are you saying you don't agree with me? "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." Of course, I realize you interpret this to mean anytime circumstances force God to withdraw His protection and permit sinners to reap what they have sown it is a "strange act". In other words, the "strange act", the "act of punishment" is God ceasing preventing sinners from reaping what they have sown.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128421
10/27/10 03:44 PM
10/27/10 03:44 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: That's the context of the passage, namely, "human passion".
T: "Human passion" isn't the context of the passage. The passage is talking about what happens when Christ stops interceding in the Most Holy Place. The Seven Last Plagues happen.
M: Elsewhere Ellen goes on to compare the plagues of Egypt and the seven last plagues. Are you saying such plagues occurred in 70 AD?
T: What? What kind of question is this?
M: Also, God says, "I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." What do you make of this insight?
T: I think it's a warning from God. It's not literal. God won't literally laugh and mock the lost. I hope this isn't what you think. Ellen specifically says "human passion". But she doesn't specifically say "seven last plagues". During the great, final, time of trouble Jesus will permit evil angels to influence evil men and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. At the same time, Jesus will command holy angels to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues. Ellen also specifically says the seven last plagues resemble the plagues of Egypt. Nowhere, however, does she say something similar to the plagues of Egypt happened in 70 AD. But you seem convinced the death of Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is very similar to what will happen when human probation closes. I also believe there are similarities. Just as evil angels worked through the inflamed evil passions of Jew and Gentile, so too, evil angels will work through the inflamed evil passions of evil men and persecute SDAs. Holy angels will praise God as evil men, women, and children suffer and die as a result of the outpouring of the seven last plagues. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." But I hear you saying it is evil angels who will execute the righteous judgments of God. If so, then in reality the holy angels will express thanks and praise for what the evil angels will do. Also, it sounds like you believe God saying He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children as they suffer and die during the outpouring of the plagues cannot be taken literally. And you also seem to shudder at the thought of anyone taking God at His word as if God doesn't mean what He says.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: kland]
#128422
10/27/10 03:49 PM
10/27/10 03:49 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Kland, I agree with Tom's clarification of my belief in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act". It doesn't matter if He withdraws His protection and permits nature, evil men, or evil angels to cause death and destruction, or if He commands holy angels, holy men, or evil men and nations to cause death and destruction, or if He acts unilaterally to cause death and destruction - the end result is the same, namely, sinners are punished. In some cases they are burned alive. A question that hasn't been answered yet is - How is it not arbitrary? What is not arbitrary about them being burned alive? There is no natural cause and effect relationship between the sins they committed and being punished by being burned alive. Never mind who did it, that is, who burned them alive.
K: I had asked, why do you find this as being a "Strange Act". Could you help me understand how this answers that question? "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128423
10/27/10 03:52 PM
10/27/10 03:52 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, in the past you said God works to supernaturally prevent sinners from immediately reaping what they sow. Do you still believe this is true?
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128426
10/27/10 04:13 PM
10/27/10 04:13 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Kland, I agree with Tom in that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".
T: This should read: "Kland, I agree with Tom's statement that it is my belief that anytime circumstances force God to punish sinners it is a "strange act".
M:Are you saying you don't agree with me? "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." Of course, I realize you interpret this to mean anytime circumstances force God to withdraw His protection and permit sinners to reap what they have sown it is a "strange act". In other words, the "strange act", the "act of punishment" is God ceasing preventing sinners from reaping what they have sown. Yes, I disagree with you, in regards to what the "act of punishment" is. As you've defined the "act of punishment" here, I agree.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128427
10/27/10 04:25 PM
10/27/10 04:25 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Ellen specifically says "human passion". But she doesn't specifically say "seven last plagues". She says specifically "final trouble," and that this is what Satan will plunge the world into. During the great, final, time of trouble Jesus will permit evil angels to influence evil men and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. At the same time, Jesus will command holy angels to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues. You didn't respond to my point about how, if God did this, He would be using the means of Satan's government as opposed to His own, did you? Ellen also specifically says the seven last plagues resemble the plagues of Egypt. Nowhere, however, does she say something similar to the plagues of Egypt happened in 70 AD. But you seem convinced the death of Jews and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is very similar to what will happen when human probation closes. Sure, that's easy. By the transitive law of equality, if A=B and B=C, then A=C. She says the last plagues (aka "final trouble" Satan plunges the world into) is like the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last plagues are like the ones in Egypt, so there you have it: A=B, B=C, so therefore A=C. I also believe there are similarities. Just as evil angels worked through the inflamed evil passions of Jew and Gentile, so too, evil angels will work through the inflamed evil passions of evil men and persecute SDAs. Not necessarily SDA's, although SDA's (faithful ones) will be included. Many SDA's will be shaken out, and many non-SDA's will respond favorably to the final message which reveals God's character of love. Holy angels will praise God as evil men, women, and children suffer and die as a result of the outpouring of the seven last plagues. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." But I hear you saying it is evil angels who will execute the righteous judgments of God. If so, then in reality the holy angels will express thanks and praise for what the evil angels will do. I think you're taking something literally which shouldn't be. There are many examples of this in Scripture, such as the text you just quoted yesterday, which speak of God's laughing at and mocking the lost. I think some effort should be made to consider what point is trying to be made, and to consider what God's character, as revealed by Jesus Christ, is, and if a literal interpretation lends itself to agreement of the character which Jesus Christ revealed. Also, I've made the point that for God to do what you are suggesting would have Him use the means of Satan's government, rather than His own. Also, it sounds like you believe God saying He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children as they suffer and die during the outpouring of the plagues cannot be taken literally. Of course. This is obvious. And you also seem to shudder at the thought of anyone taking God at His word as if God doesn't mean what He says. I shudder at the thought of people confusing God with Satan, in terms of His character, and the principles of His government.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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