For the record, I also believe that the IJ is now for those who understand the gospel and the great salvation from sin that God freely offers every son and daughter of Adam. We need to confess our sinfulness and our need of the remedy that God offers. I am close to John's view in that regard although we may not see some things eye to eye, and I'm glad he's brought this view forward.

Mark, at least you have gone on public record as disagreeing with the SDA view of the IJ. I would expect that from an official of MSDAOL. The idea that the IJ did not begin with the dead in 1844 is anti-Adventism. The idea that the IJ of the living has begun already is also a non-Adventist view. Such contradictions, if adopted by the SDA Church, would totally undermine Adventism.

It seems to me the investigative judgment, and all judgment, is primarily about God. It is His character that was called into question. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to reveal the Father, and in so doing set and keep men right with God. This must fit into the question somehow, mustn't it?

The books of heaven represent the characters of those who are being judged. Angels have in interest in seeing who their future neighbors throughout eternity will be. They have an opportunity to see how sound God's judgment is by the way He judges the case of the dead and the living.

Given that the books in heaven simply reflect the reality of our characters here on earth, if we have faith in Christ then we will pass the judgment:

quote:

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The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762)

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There should be something for everybody to like in this quote!

Regarding the IJ beginning in 1844 with the dead, that is sound, although we have more to learn about it IMO. Regarding the judgment of the living being a present reality, this is genuine Adventism. It's based on the prinicple that everyone is accountable for the light he has today. Those who are aware of the open door to the Most Holy Place are invited today to set their faith on Christ within the veil as their Advocate and judge. The world is not arrayed yet IMO because for the most part it has not been presented with the testing truths of the three angels' messages.

Mike

Are you saying that adventism stands and falls with Investigative Judgement?

/Thomas

Mike: John, regarding your position concerning perfection, sinlessness and victory over our defective traits of character, please understand that I agree with you wholeheartedly.

John: It appears you agree with the end result.

Mike: How do we make the transition from sinful and morally imperfect to sinless and morally perfect? By cooperating with the Spirit of God during the process of conversion, by confessing, in light of the cross, our defective traits of character as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us. If we keep pace with God, as He shows us our sinfulness in light of the cross, if we confess each defective trait of character as they are revealed, if we do not cling to a cherished, pet, darling sin when it is exposed, if we confess the last character defect when it is revealed - then, and only then, can we experience the miracle of rebirth. Then, and only then, will God implant in us the sinless seed, or mind, of the new man

John: It appears you disagree with the way of getting there. Not that I have problems with what you said here, but taken in context of the fact that you have declared it to be contradictory to what I have stated, I must accept it to mean something else than what I have said. I have a difficult time figuring your statement here and the rest of your comments (without re-quoting) in such contradiction.

My observations as follows: You have not once used the words: faith, trust, judgment, believe. I do not know if that has any meaning, but if it does, I have grave concerns as to the meaning of your words: connected, imitate, conversion, co-operate, light of the cross, fellowship.

Please explain the contradiction between your way of victory over sin and what I have expressed.

Mike Said:

quote:

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Mark, at least you have gone on public record as disagreeing with the SDA view of the IJ. I would expect that from an official of MSDAOL.

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Mike, I do not think that you should regard yourself to be the defining authority on SDA doctrine. I have opened up another thread for the light of this matter to be established. You are welcome to pursue it there at the same time we would like to continue the thread here in context of victory over sin.

Tom, you're right, that is an awesome quote from DA - one of my favorite.

Thomas, yes, Adventism was built on the sanctuary message. It is the heart and soul of the final warning. "The hour of his judgment is come." Without it we are no different than any other protestant church. Here's what Sister White said about it:

1SM 209
We are God's commandment-keeping people. For the past fifty years every phase of heresy has been brought to bear upon us, to becloud our minds regarding the teaching of the Word--especially concerning the ministration of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, and the message of Heaven for these last days, as given by the angels of the fourteenth chapter of Revelation. Messages of every order and kind have been urged upon Seventh-day Adventists, to take the place of the truth which, point by point, has been sought out by prayerful study, and testified to by the miracle-working power of the Lord. But the waymarks which have made us what we are, are to be preserved, and they will be preserved, as God has signified through His Word and the testimony of His Spirit. He calls upon us to hold firmly, with the grip of faith, to the fundamental principles that are based upon unquestionable authority. {1SM 208.2}

LDE 45, 46
In a special sense Seventh-day Adventists have been set in the world as watchmen and light bearers. To them has been entrusted the last warning for a perishing world. On them is shining wonderful light from the Word of God. They have been given a work of the most solemn import--the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. There is no other work of so great importance. They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention. {LDE 45.3}