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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128424
10/27/10 03:05 PM
10/27/10 03:05 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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What I'm saying is God's experience in time does not affect, alter, change our experience in time. We experience time chronologically. We are free to choose as we please. It matters not one iota that God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously. It changes nothing so far as we are concerned. God's reality is not our reality for the simple reason we do not exist in the past, present, and future simultaneously. For us the future really is wide open. It hasn't happened yet (i.e. played out). But for God eternity has happened and is happening simultaneously. Again, God's reality in no way destroys our reality.
I realize you believe none of this is possible. But I believe all of it is the truth. It accounts for why and how God has been and is able to prophesy precisely how the future will play out (i.e. unfold chronologically, happen). MM, here's the question: What is the future like? a.Like history (played out) b.Open (not played out) c.Undefined It's hard to decipher what you wrote to answer this question, but I'll try. I think you're saying that for God the future is like history, but for us, it's open. Is this correct? You write, "God's reality is not our reality," which is sort of an oxymoron. Reality isn't something which changes from person to person. That's the whole point of the word "reality." What you're really talking about is one's perception of reality, as opposed to reality itself. Reality doesn't change. It is what it is. A person's *perception* of reality can be different. So you look to be saying that God's perception of reality is different than ours because God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously whereas we don't. That makes sense, as this would certainly change one's perception of reality. What we've been asking you is what reality actually is, which you addressed by speaking of "God's reality" vs. "our reality," which is a bit inaccurate, as has been commented on. A point which has been made many times is that God's perception of reality is reality; it defines reality. Reality is what God perceives things to be. Our perceptions can be off, but not God's. So if God perceives the future to be like history, then the future is like history. We may *perceive* it to be open, but our perception is wrong, because it disagrees with God's perception, which is, by definition, right; God's perception = reality. And this gets back to one of the basic problems with the viewpoint your espousing as opposed to the Open View. The Open View says that our perception of reality is *correct*. We perceive the future to be Open, and it really is open. Not just "for us" (which would simply be an illusion), but in reality (for God, and anyone else, because if it's true in reality, it's true for everyone, which is what "reality" means). Here's the definition of "reality" Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be. Note that "God's reality" vs. "our reality" doesn't work.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128425
10/27/10 03:10 PM
10/27/10 03:10 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Also, of all the possibilities God foresaw, I hear you saying some of them included all the angels sinning. If so, what changed so that now none of the possibilities include angels sinning? The Great Controversy happened. Whatever it is why didn't God do it in the beginning? God couldn't do the Great Controversy. If it guarantees none of the future possibilities includes angels sinning, wouldn't it have worked to ensure none of the angels would have sinned in the beginning? If not, why not? God created beings with free will, which entails risk. There was the risk of that love being rejected. Some of the beings did that, and made accusations against God. God defended Himself against these accusations through the Plan of Redemption. There are two class of beings: those who chose (or will choose) to reject God, and those who reject the accusations of God's enemy. Those who have chosen to reject the accusations of the enemy will not change their mind. God could not have manufactured this by Himself.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128435
10/27/10 04:19 PM
10/27/10 04:19 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, you seem to be underestimating the affect of God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and our inability to do so as it pertains to His reality and our reality. When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128436
10/27/10 04:25 PM
10/27/10 04:25 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Also, of all the possibilities God foresaw, I hear you saying some of them included all the angels sinning. If so, what changed so that now none of the possibilities include angels sinning? The Great Controversy happened. Whatever it is why didn't God do it in the beginning? God couldn't do the Great Controversy. If it guarantees none of the future possibilities includes angels sinning, wouldn't it have worked to ensure none of the angels would have sinned in the beginning? If not, why not? God created beings with free will, which entails risk. There was the risk of that love being rejected. Some of the beings did that, and made accusations against God. God defended Himself against these accusations through the Plan of Redemption. There are two class of beings: those who chose (or will choose) to reject God, and those who reject the accusations of God's enemy. Those who have chosen to reject the accusations of the enemy will not change their mind. God could not have manufactured this by Himself. At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels sinning? At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels repenting and resuming serving God?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128438
10/27/10 05:07 PM
10/27/10 05:07 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,512
Midland
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You write, "God's reality is not our reality," which is sort of an oxymoron. Reality isn't something which changes from person to person. That's the whole point of the word "reality." What you're really talking about is one's perception of reality, as opposed to reality itself. Reality doesn't change. It is what it is. A person's *perception* of reality can be different.
Tom, I think he's going with option C. Reality is undefined. God experiences reality as He does, we experience reality as we do, but there is no real reality. As in, there are two different worlds, two different universes, but there is no "reality", nothing is really "real" but only what one experience in their own reality. Therefore, one could only conclude that both are in an illusion of the other. This kind of makes God not God, but merely an organism in this other kind of "reality". But then, I'm not sure what he thinks of our "reality" when he says: When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open.
MM, can you elaborate on how intersecting these two different realities at the "present" can affect the "future" of which reality?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128443
10/27/10 09:12 PM
10/27/10 09:12 PM
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SDA
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Kland, you are unable to grasp or appreciate my view. Thank you for trying. I have nothing further to add.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128447
10/27/10 10:36 PM
10/27/10 10:36 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Mike, honestly, the reason kland is unable to grasp or appreciate your view is that it requires a greater dose of suspencion of belief than some rather strange movies like Matrix or "2001 a space odysee".
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: vastergotland]
#128448
10/27/10 10:58 PM
10/27/10 10:58 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Thomas, is it any easier to conceive of God being everywhere throughout the universe at the same time?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: kland]
#128451
10/27/10 11:45 PM
10/27/10 11:45 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, you seem to be underestimating the affect of God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and our inability to do so as it pertains to His reality and our reality. When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open. "Two realities" is nonsensical. There is reality, and anything is not reality. You write, "in both cases, the future is wide open," but you said before that the future has "already played out," which is obviously a contradiction to the idea that it's wide open. Which is it? Has the future "already played out"? Or is it "wide open"? It can't be both.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128452
10/27/10 11:49 PM
10/27/10 11:49 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels sinning? I don't think this question, as posed, makes sense, but I think I may know what you mean. Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761) Does this answer your question? At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels repenting and resuming serving God? This one I can't decipher.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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