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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128453
10/27/10 11:52 PM
10/27/10 11:52 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Thomas, is it any easier to conceive of God being everywhere throughout the universe at the same time? The problem is that sometimes you write things like the future is "already played out," and other times you write that it's "wide open." This is obviously contradictory, which many people find problematic. Another example is saying that God experiences the past, present, and future simultaneously, but also that God experiences time sequentially.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128458
10/28/10 03:01 AM
10/28/10 03:01 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Sweden
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Thomas, is it any easier to conceive of God being everywhere throughout the universe at the same time? Yes very much so, unless you wish to postulate that God is at the same time a physical being while denying pantheism...
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: vastergotland]
#128461
10/28/10 12:00 PM
10/28/10 12:00 PM
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SDA
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Midland
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Mike, honestly, the reason kland is unable to grasp or appreciate your view is that it requires a greater dose of suspencion of belief than some rather strange movies like Matrix or "2001 a space odysee". Thanks. I had removed a Star Trek comment but see I wasn't the only one thinking it was along those lines.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128462
10/28/10 12:26 PM
10/28/10 12:26 PM
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Tom, you seem to be underestimating the affect of God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and our inability to do so as it pertains to His reality and our reality. When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open. "Two realities" is nonsensical. There is reality, and anything is not reality. You write, "in both cases, the future is wide open," but you said before that the future has "already played out," which is obviously a contradiction to the idea that it's wide open. Which is it? Has the future "already played out"? Or is it "wide open"? It can't be both. But it makes perfect sense if there are dual or plural realities. Especially if there is no real reality. But it's kind of a hard position to support. I suppose that's why he's getting frustrated and contradicts himself. I did a search for dual and plural realities and some interesting things came up. Here's a paper that might relate to his view: http://www.users.muohio.edu/shermalw/cscl95.htmlOr, perhaps it is more of the Calvin and Hobbes subjective type of reality: http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2008/10/theology-of-calvin-and-hobbes-part-5_29.html
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128469
10/28/10 01:57 PM
10/28/10 01:57 PM
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SDA
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M: Tom, you seem to be underestimating the affect of God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and our inability to do so as it pertains to His reality and our reality. When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open.
T: "Two realities" is nonsensical. There is reality, and anything is not reality. You write, "in both cases, the future is wide open," but you said before that the future has "already played out," which is obviously a contradiction to the idea that it's wide open. Which is it? Has the future "already played out"? Or is it "wide open"? It can't be both. God is, as it were, nonsensical; we cannot make sense of Him. We are incapable of comprehending Him. We lack the knowledge to understand Him. We cannot entirely relate to Him because we are not entirely like Him. All we know about Him is what Jesus has revealed about Him. But Jesus didn't reveal everything there is to know about God, therefore, we must accept there are certain things we cannot know about God, namely, how He can be everywhere in time and space at the same time without it affecting, altering, changing our experience in time and space. Since God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously it stands to reason that He is present with us in the present. That He also exists in the past and future at the same time does not prevent Him from coexisting with us in the present. It's just one of those many things about God we cannot comprehend, just like we cannot understand how God can be everywhere at the same time. Logic would suggest that if God is everywhere He is in essence nowhere. As God coexists with us in the present the future is wide open for Him and us. It doesn't matter that He simultaneously exists in the past and future.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128473
10/28/10 02:17 PM
10/28/10 02:17 PM
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SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
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M: ]Also, of all the possibilities God foresaw, I hear you saying some of them included all the angels sinning. If so, what changed so that now none of the possibilities include angels sinning? T: The Great Controversy happened. M: Whatever it is why didn't God do it in the beginning? T: God couldn't do the Great Controversy. M: If it guarantees none of the future possibilities includes angels sinning, wouldn't it have worked to ensure none of the angels would have sinned in the beginning? If not, why not? T: God created beings with free will, which entails risk. There was the risk of that love being rejected. Some of the beings did that, and made accusations against God. God defended Himself against these accusations through the Plan of Redemption. There are two class of beings: those who chose (or will choose) to reject God, and those who reject the accusations of God's enemy. Those who have chosen to reject the accusations of the enemy will not change their mind. God could not have manufactured this by Himself. M: At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels sinning? At what point did all the future possibilities exclude angels repenting and resuming serving God? T: I don't think [the first] question, as posed, makes sense, but I think I may know what you mean. Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761) Does this answer your question? [The second question] I can't decipher. It seems like you’re implying Calvary was a turning point for the holy angels, and that from this point forward none of the future possibilities God saw involved them sinning. Does this imply that before Calvary some of the future possibilities God saw involved them sinning? If so, aren’t you implying Calvary was necessary to ensure none of the future possibilities involve them sinning? When and what was the turning point for the evil angels? That is, at what point did they commit the unpardonable sin? Also, what if A&E had successfully resisted Satan’s attempt to influence them to sin? What then? That is, how it would have affected the holy angels? What would have served as the turning point, the point where none of the future possibilities God saw involved them sinning? The life and death of Jesus would have been unnecessary, therefore, what would have served to change the holy angels into beings whose future does not involve the possibility of them sinning?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128474
10/28/10 02:22 PM
10/28/10 02:22 PM
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SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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Kland, please explain how and why God is physically present everywhere throughout the entire universe simultaneously.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128478
10/28/10 05:44 PM
10/28/10 05:44 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
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Cross posting this:
MM, a weakness of your view is that it has no answer for the problem of evil. That is, why evil exists. The Open View answers this question by stating that God creating beings who could love and be loved, which entails risk, and that there is no way around this risk, given the existence of love. You don't have an answer to the question of why God would choose to create a being He was certain would invent sin as opposed to one He was certain would not.
MM, please respond to this point here, instead of on the other thread.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128479
10/28/10 05:48 PM
10/28/10 05:48 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
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Midland
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Kland, please explain how and why God is physically present everywhere throughout the entire universe simultaneously. Is God physically present everywhere throughout the entire universe simultaneously?
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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
[Re: Tom]
#128480
10/28/10 05:51 PM
10/28/10 05:51 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Tom, you seem to be underestimating the affect of God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and our inability to do so as it pertains to His reality and our reality. When God's reality and our reality intersect, as it does in the present, the two realities are identical. In both cases, the future is wide open.
T: "Two realities" is nonsensical. There is reality, and anything is not reality. You write, "in both cases, the future is wide open," but you said before that the future has "already played out," which is obviously a contradiction to the idea that it's wide open. Which is it? Has the future "already played out"? Or is it "wide open"? It can't be both.
M:God is, as it were, nonsensical; we cannot make sense of Him. "Nonsenical" means "nonsense," "foolishness," "absurd." You're basically saying in one place "2+2 is odd," and in another "2+2 is even." Or "black is white." This doesn't have anything to do with God, but with saying things which are contradictory. We are incapable of comprehending Him. We lack the knowledge to understand Him. We cannot entirely relate to Him because we are not entirely like Him. All we know about Him is what Jesus has revealed about Him. I agree with this! (during His earthly ministry) But Jesus didn't reveal everything there is to know about God, therefore, we must accept there are certain things we cannot know about God, namely, how He can be everywhere in time and space at the same time without it affecting, altering, changing our experience in time and space. There is no reason to think that if Jesus didn't reveal all there is to know about God that we must accept certain private ideas you hold. This is completely illogical. Since God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously it stands to reason that He is present with us in the present. That He also exists in the past and future at the same time does not prevent Him from coexisting with us in the present. It's just one of those many things about God we cannot comprehend, just like we cannot understand how God can be everywhere at the same time. Logic would suggest that if God is everywhere He is in essence nowhere. As God coexists with us in the present the future is wide open for Him and us. It doesn't matter that He simultaneously exists in the past and future. None of what you wrote in any of this post is in any way responsive to what I wrote, which I'll repeat for your benefit: T: "Two realities" is nonsensical. There is reality, and anything is not reality. You write, "in both cases, the future is wide open," but you said before that the future has "already played out," which is obviously a contradiction to the idea that it's wide open. Which is it? Has the future "already played out"? Or is it "wide open"? It can't be both. Please answer my question.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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