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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128428
10/27/10 04:28 PM
10/27/10 04:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, in the past you said God works to supernaturally prevent sinners from immediately reaping what they sow. Do you still believe this is true?


This was in regards to DA 764:

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.


I understand this to be saying that God supernaturally prevents the wicked from being destroyed by not leaving them to reap the full result of their sin.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128430
10/27/10 04:51 PM
10/27/10 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
By "full result of their sin" do you mean the results suffered here and now or do you mean the results they will suffer at the end of time? For example, all those sinners I named above who were burned alive, do you believe they reaped what they had sown? If not, why were they burned alive? Or, will they reap what they have sown when the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them", when "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? If so, how did God prevent it from happening the moment they sinned? Did He purposely work to prevent them from knowing Him?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128431
10/27/10 04:59 PM
10/27/10 04:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Also, who and what will the holy angels praise and thank when evil men, women, and children suffer and die during the outpouring the seven last plagues? And, will the plagues count as sinners reaping what they have sown? Or, will it only count as preliminary punishment? If so, what purpose will it serve? Also, how will it not be arbitrary, that is, not a direct, natural consequence of sinning (like smoking results in cancer)?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128432
10/27/10 05:02 PM
10/27/10 05:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If God didn't mean for us to understand He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children when they are suffering and dying during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, why, then, did He say so? Was He being factious? Also, is there anything else God has said that we cannot take literally? What about the promise Jesus will return and resurrect the righteous and take them along with the 144,000 to heaven?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128442
10/27/10 06:45 PM
10/27/10 06:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
By "full result of their sin" do you mean the results suffered here and now or do you mean the results they will suffer at the end of time?


You mean, what did Ellen White mean? (whom I quoted) The context seems clear to be speaking of the destruction of the wicked after the second resurrection, doesn't it?

Quote:
For example, all those sinners I named above who were burned alive, do you believe they reaped what they had sown? If not, why were they burned alive? Or, will they reap what they have sown when the "glory of Him who is love will destroy them", when "His very presence is to them a consuming fire"? If so, how did God prevent it from happening the moment they sinned? Did He purposely work to prevent them from knowing Him?


We've discussed this. What did I say before?

Quote:
Also, who and what will the holy angels praise and thank when evil men, women, and children suffer and die during the outpouring the seven last plagues? And, will the plagues count as sinners reaping what they have sown? Or, will it only count as preliminary punishment? If so, what purpose will it serve? Also, how will it not be arbitrary, that is, not a direct, natural consequence of sinning (like smoking results in cancer)?


Look at GC 36 please. Regarding what attitude the angels will have, consider how Christ felt when Jerusalem was being destroyed. The principles are all there, in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Quote:
If God didn't mean for us to understand He will laugh at and mock evil men, women, and children when they are suffering and dying during the outpouring of the seven last plagues, why, then, did He say so?


Why did Jesus treat the woman who asked to be healed the way that He did? (i.e., the woman, not Jewish, who asked to be healed, and Christ treated her coldly, saying, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

Quote:
Was He being factious? Also, is there anything else God has said that we cannot take literally?


Why did Jesus curse the fig tree? Often God communicates to us in a way that we might learn something.

Something to take in mind is that God must meet us in the paradigm that we have. If we think selfishly, then God must communicate to us according to that paradigm. There are many examples of this in Scripture. For example, there was the servant in the story who buried his talent because he viewed God to be severe. Christ answered him according to the paradigm that He had (as opposed to correcting him, that God, in reality, is not severe).

You appear to me to view God as extremely severe.

Quote:
What about the promise Jesus will return and resurrect the righteous and take them along with the 144,000 to heaven?


You don't see the difference here?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128445
10/27/10 10:47 PM
10/27/10 10:47 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I don't understand how your responses to my comments and questions address them. Please elaborate. Also, please don't expect me to know what you think. Also, there are plenty of people who dismiss much of the Bible using logic similar to what you described above, that is, God employs hyperbole because we are unable to comprehend the truth, therefore, say they, most of what the Bible says cannot be taken literally.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128456
10/28/10 01:13 AM
10/28/10 01:13 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding this: "God employs hyperbole because we are unable to comprehend the truth, therefore, say they, most of what the Bible says cannot be taken literally."

Don't you do this? For example, God says:

Quote:
At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.(Jer. 18)


Here's another one:

Quote:
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6)


One more:

Quote:
What more was there to do for my vineyard
that I have not done in it?
When I expected it to yield grapes,
why did it yield wild grapes?

(Isa. 5)


You don't think these passages are literal.

Here's another one:

Quote:
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.(Rev. 20:1)


So how are you not doing the same thing? That is, you recognize much of what is in Scripture as not literal, yet that doesn't cause you to reject the Bible as a whole.

Much of the Bible is not literal. Surely you recognize this. So how do we know what's literal and what isn't? We have to compare Scripture with Scripture, and use common sense, and, above all, spiritual things are spiritually discerned: we need the Holy Spirit.

Regarding the questions I asked you, I asked you these to answer your questions. Why did Jesus treat the woman I mentioned the way He did? It was because this is the way His hearers would have treated her, and He wanted to instruct them that God is not that way.

Jesus Christ didn't mock those who rejected them; He didn't laugh at them. He died on a cross for them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128459
10/28/10 12:36 PM
10/28/10 12:36 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,494
Midland
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

K: I had asked, why do you find this as being a "Strange Act". Could you help me understand how this answers that question?
M: "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

Forgive me for not emphasizing it:
I had asked, why do --->>> you <<<--- find this as being a "Strange Act".

Is it merely because you read it stated as it was? I was referring to those multiple times you asked me if I thought such-and-such as a strange act. So why do you think so?

You had quoted the following elsewhere as defining what wrath is. Good job:
Quote:

The law of God is made void. We see and hear of confusion and perplexity, want and famine, earthquakes and floods; terrible outrages will be committed by men; passion, not reason, bears sway. The wrath of God is upon the inhabitants of the world, who are fast becoming as corrupt as were the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah. Already fire and flood are destroying thousands of lives and the property that has been selfishly accumulated by the oppression of the poor. The Lord is soon to cut short His work and put an end to sin. Oh, that the scenes which have come before me of the iniquities practiced in these last days, might make a deep impression on the minds of God's professing people. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be when the Son of man shall be revealed. The Lord is removing His restrictions from the earth, and soon there will be death and destruction, increasing crime, and cruel, evil working against the rich who have exalted themselves against the poor. Those who are without God's protection will find no safety in any place or position. Human agents are being trained and are using their inventive power to put in operation the most powerful machinery to wound and to kill. {8T 49.3}

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: kland] #128460
10/28/10 12:54 PM
10/28/10 12:54 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,494
Midland
Quote:
During the great, final, time of trouble Jesus will permit evil angels to influence evil men and work through their inflamed evil passions to persecute SDAs. At the same time, Jesus will command holy angels to cause the death and destruction portrayed by the seven last plagues.

I had come across this in Early Writings pages 36-38:
Quote:
I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus' work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues.
...
I saw four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and were on their way to accomplish it. Jesus was clothed with priestly garments. He gazed in pity on the remnant, then raised His hands, and with a voice of deep pity cried, "My blood, Father, My blood, My blood, My blood!" Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from God, who sat upon the great white throne, and was shed all about Jesus. Then I saw an angel with a commission from Jesus, swiftly flying to the four angels who had a work to do on the earth, and waving something up and down in his hand, and crying with a loud voice, "Hold! Hold! Hold! Hold! until the servants of God are sealed in their foreheads."
I asked my accompanying angel the meaning of what I heard, and what the four angels were about to do. He said to me that it was God that restrained the powers, and that He gave His angels charge over things on the earth; that the four angels had power from God to hold the four winds, and that they were about to let them go; but while their hands were loosening, and the four winds were about to blow, the merciful eye of Jesus gazed on the remnant that were not sealed, and He raised His hands to the Father and pleaded with Him that He had spilled His blood for them. Then another angel was commissioned to fly swiftly to the four angels and bid them hold, until the servants of God were sealed with the seal of the living God in their foreheads.

So yes, you are correct, Jesus will command holy angels.
Which angels are being commanded?
What is the work the four angels are to do?
What causes the destruction?

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: kland] #128488
10/28/10 09:51 PM
10/28/10 09:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, symbols and hyperbole are different. I don't think God used hyperbole. The Bible should be taken literally unless it is obvious a symbol is employed. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." {GC 598.3} There is nothing symbolic about the following passage:

Proverbs
1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Regarding this passage, Ellen wrote:

Quote:
In earnest, agonizing prayer they call for God to pass them not by. The kings, the mighty men, the lofty, the proud, the mean man, alike bow together under a pressure of woe, desolation, misery inexpressible; heart-anguished prayers are wrung from their lips. Mercy! mercy! Save us from the wrath of an offended God! A voice answers them with terrible distinctness, sternness, and majesty: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {2T 41.2}

At this time I prized the Christian's hope. The scene before me brought vividly to my mind the day of the Lord's fierce anger, when the storm of His wrath will come upon the poor sinner. Then there will be bitter cries and tears, confession of sin, and pleading for mercy, when it will be too late. "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." {1T 81.1}

My brother, my sister, if these precious moments of mercy are not improved, you will be left without excuse. If you make no special effort to arouse, if you will not manifest zeal in repenting, these golden moments will soon pass, and you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. Then your agonizing cries will be of no avail. Then will apply the words of the Lord: "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out My hand, and no man regarded; but ye have set at nought all My counsel, and would none of My reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. {1T 263.1}

Mercy's sweet call is now sounding; but it will soon die away. Probation's hour will soon be ended. The seven last plagues will fall, and then those who have chosen the pleasures of the world and rebelled against God, will cry for mercy when there will be none to answer their prayers. But a voice will be heard,--"Thou art weighed in the balance and found wanting." And as they realize that they have no shelter from the dreadful storm of God's wrath, they will plead for one little hour of probation that they may again hear the sweet voice, inviting "every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters." It will then fall upon the ear, in that dreadful hour. "Too late! too late!" "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof. I also will laugh at your calamity, I will mock when your fear cometh." {YI, January 1, 1854 par. 5}

There is no reason to think Ellen felt these words of God should be taken any other way than literally.

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