I quoted from Ellen White where she explained how Calvary convinced them beyond any doubt that Satan was wrong. Here's something else she wrote along these lines:





Why would you think this is implied?



It was necessary to secure them against evil.



For Satan it was when he refused to repent and confess his sin, even after he was convinced he had been wrong. For Satan's followers, it was when they decided to follow Satan in rebellion, but we don't have nearly as much information in their regard as we do for Satan.



This is entering into speculative areas. We're not told what God would have done, right?



Same answer. I'm sure God had something in mind.

You're right, I cannot fully explain why God chose to create beings He knew would sin and die in the lake of fire. Neither can I explain why He allowed our parents to conceive us even though He knew we would sin (He could have prevented it without violating free will). The best I have found is the following passage:

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter him from carrying out his eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish his throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning; "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Therefore redemption was not an afterthought--a plan formulated after the fall of Adam--but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 1}

In the following passage it says A&E would have been rendered eternally secure and in perpetual favor with God and the holy angels, which implies the holy angels would have enjoyed the same, namely, eternal security and perpetual favor with God.

When Adam and Eve were placed in the beautiful garden they had everything for their happiness which they could desire. But God chose, in His all-wise arrangements, to test their loyalty before they could be rendered eternally secure. They were to have His favor, and He was to converse with them and they with Him. Yet He did not place evil out of their reach. Satan was permitted to tempt them. If they endured the trial they were to be in perpetual favor with God and the heavenly angels. {SR 24.2}


By the way, I came across the following quote while searching for the ones above. It plainly says Jesus knew He would succeed on the cross.

The scenes of the past and the future were presented to the mind of Jesus. He beheld Lucifer as he was first cast out from the heavenly places. He looked forward to the scenes of His own agony, when before all the worlds the character of the deceiver should be unveiled. He heard the cry, "It is finished" (John 19:30), announcing that the redemption of the lost race was forever made certain, that heaven was made eternally secure against the accusations, the deceptions, the pretensions, that Satan would instigate. {DA 490.2}

Yes. You see, there is more to time and space than meets the human eye. For example, angels are physical beings. They are all around us all the time. However, we can't see or feel them. Unless, of course, they choose to make themselves visible and tangible. How do you explain these well known facts?

In the Bible it says:

John
4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Hebrews
1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Some people cite these verses to prove God and holy angels are "spirits" not physical, tangible beings. What do you believe?

There is nothing illogical or unreasonable about God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously and me saying it does not affect, alter, change time and space as we know it. God experiences time and space in ways we cannot, therefore, His reality must necessarily involve realities ours does not.

Amen! So, I hear you saying, Yes, Calvary was necessary to ensure none of the future possibilities includes angels sinning. Which begs the question - Why didn't Jesus suffer and die before the angels rebelled? Wouldn't it have prevented rebellion?


Well, if Calvary ensures none of the future possibilities involves FMAs sinning, and if, as you say, prior to Calvary some of the future possibilities involved all FMAs sinning, doesn't it stand to reason to deduce before Calvary some of the future possibilities God saw involved them sinning?


So, yes, you are indeed saying Calvary was necessary to ensure none of the future possibilities involves FMAs sinning. Or, am I jumping to conclusions? Do you instead believe Calvary was not necessary to ensure none of the future possibilities involves FMAs sinning? If so, what accounts for the fact after Calvary God can unconditionally say sin and rebellion will not reoccur, whereas before Calvary some of the future possibilities involved all FMAs sinning and dying?


But if, as you say, Calvary is necessary to safeguard FMAs against sin and rebellion, why, then, didn't Jesus suffer and die in the beginning, before Satan and the angels sinned and rebelled? Wouldn't it have served to prevent the great controversy? If not, why not? Why does it serve such a purpose after the fact but it wouldn't have before the fact?

Also, what about the fact Ellen was shown if A&E had successfully resisted Satan in Eden that they and the entire universe would have been "rendered eternally secure" and would have enjoyed "perpetual favor with God"? This makes it sound like Calvary would have been unnecessary? What purpose would His death have served if the entire universe was already eternally secure and enjoying perpetual favor with God?

Oh, oh. I was afraid of having to ask you what "physically present" means to you.

What would not physically present mean? What would be a non-physical being?

If I understand correctly, you do not believe in absolute right and wrong. Are you also saying you don't believe in absolute reality?

That's incorrect.
It's doesn't have to do with your view, but your defense and support of your view that I am "unable to grasp or appreciate" as you say. For example, I disagree with the evolutionist view, but some of them can reason and put forth logical support of their view. Such as with the "Notch" gene. I may not agree with their conclusion nor believe they have fully explored other conclusions, but I am able to grasp and appreciate their logical defense and presentation of evidence in support of their view. They use logic that exists in our own "reality" if you choose.

I believe the Father is a physical being, and that He is physically present everywhere at the same time. There is no such thing as non-physical being. You have yet to answer my question - Do you believe God is a physical being and that He is physically present everywhere at the same time? If so, please explain it logically. If not, what do you believe about it? And, concerning reality, I take it you disagree with my view. I have nothing further to say.

Not "fully explain," but explain at all. You can't give any reason whatsoever for why God would do the things you suggest, which is a major weakness in your position. We should be able to give a reason for the things we believe.







This passage doesn't address my question. It addresses questions like the following: "If sin happened, could God still establish His throne in righteousness?"

It doesn't address the question of why sin exists, and there are many EGW statement which contradict your idea that sin was inevitable. The idea that sin was inevitable is problematic for many reasons. I'll mention three:

1.It portrays God in a negative light. Why would a benevolent Being do something to make sin inevitable?

2.It implies that there was fault with God. God was not able to create in such a way that sin was not inevitable.

3.It gives an explanation for why sin exists. That is, the existence of sin is not a mystery. Sin exists because God set into motion a course of events to make it inevitable.