M:If Kland cannot explain how God can be physically everywhere at the same time what right does he have to find fault with my view of God's experience in time and space?

Besides, if I remember right, you do not believe God is omnipresent,

that is, that He is physically everywhere at the same time.

You believe God "is a Spirit" means He is not physically everywhere at the same time.

Do you mean in general? Or do you have some specific instance in mind? By saying:



it sounds like you're saying:



This correctly represents your point?

Of course it is. "Already played out" means not "wide open." These concepts are mutually exclusive.



Sounds like you're advocating a religion where contradictions don't matter, where "white is black" and "black is white."

You're statement that it is perfectly logical to assert that the future has played out, yet is wide open, that if one believes that God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously without effecting how we experience time, which misses the point.

When you say "how we experience" time and space, this gets into the realm of perception. Reality is not about perception, but what is. You're still confusing the two, which is what I think leads you to make the contradictory statements you make.

How we experience time and space involves our perception, but our perception can be wrong. We experience the future to be "wide open," but if it has "already played out," then it is not *really* "wide open": it has "already played out"!

Our perception, in this case, is out of kilter with reality.

Which is the point I've been making all along. This is a weakness of your viewpoint. It makes our perception of the future into an illusion. It's not really "wide open." It's really "played out." We merely experience it as "wide open."

Because it's illogical and self-contradictory. That your view is such, and can be found fault with because of this, isn't dependent upon kland's ability to explain how God can by physically everywhere. Why should it be? Why would you even think such a thing?



No, this is wrong.



No.



No.

I believe God is everywhere present by His Spirit. Isn't this what you believe?

God, as a person, is in heaven, isn't He? Isn't this why we pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven."? Why don't we pray, "Our Father, who art everywhere"?

So, if I'm hearing correctly, you do not believe the Father is physically present everywhere at the same time; instead, you believe He is in heaven.

Do you believe He is incapable of being physically everywhere at the same time?

If so, I disagree.

Besides, if I remember right, you do not believe God is omnipresent,


No, this is wrong.

that is, that He is physically everywhere at the same time.


No.

I believe both the Father and the Holy Spirit are physically present everywhere at the same time. Obviously I also believe there is more to time and space than meets the human eye.

By the way, the way a person can know if a prophecy is conditional or unconditional is simple - the remaining unfulfilled prophecies will play out in perfect accordance with the SOP. There is nothing unclear, obscure, or ambiguous about it in the SOP. It is too plain to mistake or misunderstand.

Am I implying the "remaining unfulfilled prophecies" in the Bible are "unclear, obscure, or ambiguous" when compared to the interpretation in the SOP? Yes, or course.

Do you agree?

Or, are you of the opinion they are just as clear in the Bible as they are in the SOP?

The future is wide open. Although the future isn't reality, at least not yet. It is not reality until it becomes present or past.

T:Then your previous statement that it has already played out is incorrect.

M:Not at all.


Of course it is. "Already played out" means not "wide open." These concepts are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
If you believe God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously, without it affecting how we experience time and space, then it is perfectly logical.


Sounds like you're advocating a religion where contradictions don't matter, where "white is black" and "black is white."

You're statement that it is perfectly logical to assert that the future has played out, yet is wide open, that if one believes that God exists in the past, present and future simultaneously without effecting how we experience time, which misses the point.

When you say "how we experience" time and space, this gets into the realm of perception. Reality is not about perception, but what is. You're still confusing the two, which is what I think leads you to make the contradictory statements you make.

How we experience time and space involves our perception, but our perception can be wrong. We experience the future to be "wide open," but if it has "already played out," then it is not *really* "wide open": it has "already played out"!

Our perception, in this case, is out of kilter with reality.

Which is the point I've been making all along. This is a weakness of your viewpoint. It makes our perception of the future into an illusion. It's not really "wide open." It's really "played out." We merely experience it as "wide open."

MM:Unless, of course, you believe God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously does not in the least affect, alter, change how we in reality experience time and space (as opposed to how we perceive time and space).

The future is wide open for everyone except God.

However, His reality does not in the least affect, alter, change our reality.

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be.

Reality is the state of things as they may be perceived, rather than as they actually exist.

The fact God is everywhere in time and space simultaneously necessarily means His reality is different than our reality for the simple reason we are not everywhere in time and space simultaneously.

Do you believe He is incapable of being physically everywhere at the same time? If so, I disagree. I believe both the Father and the Holy Spirit are physically present everywhere at the same time. Obviously I also believe there is more to time and space than meets the human eye.

You don't seem to "hear" very well. Why don't you respond to my questions?



Why do you not respond to my questions?



MM, here's our dialog:



again:



To quote a well-known line, "Which part of 'no' did you not understand?"




What do you think about what I actually asked you?

1.I believe God is everywhere present by His Spirit. Isn't this what you believe?

2a,b,c.God, as a person, is in heaven, isn't He? Isn't this why we pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven."? Why don't we pray, "Our Father, who art everywhere"?