Tom, please respond to 128518.

Yes, as well as the other things described in the paragraph. For example:





I wrote pages and pages and pages regarding this. It's a bit disappointing that you don't remember anything that I wrote.

A brief answer is that I don't think the specifics matter so much as the general principles involved. The key general principles are:

1.God actively does things to prevent sin/Satan from destroying those who reject Him.

2.At some point in time, God allows those who have chosen not to have God in their lives the result of that choice, which is death.



FOTAP



What do you mean "count"? The principle of reaping what one sows applies to the last plagues, if that's what you're asking.



Why do you think it serves a purpose?



Same question. Suffering, in general, results when beings choose to live according to principles other than those which God espouses. Sometimes the suffering comes directly (e.g., one smokes and gets cancer), sometimes indirectly (e.g., Job).



Well, I suppose one could think of them as arbitrarily imposed by Satan. Is this what you're asking?



In both cases God transmitted a message in a way which is at face value contrary to His character. One needs to consider at more than what immediately is apparent what is really going on. God often communicates to people as if He were like them, so they can have some understanding of what He is saying. But this doesn't give a fair indication of what God is really like. Only Jesus Christ does this.

For example, the true followers of Jesus Christ are not motivated by hope of reward or fear of punishment (DA 480). Yet both Scripture and the SOP have many appeals to both hope of reward and fear of punishment. Why?



I sure hope so.



This is something you think I consider you hold as a viewpoint of God?



This is confusing. What I've been hearing for years is that you think it is God's character to "utterly kill," and to do so in the most painful way possible.



What is God's character? This is the key question. This is where we differ.

But my goodness, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!! I've never restored to saying that words don't mean what they normally mean because certain statements didn't support what I had been saying.

Anyway, back to my point. How we understand God's character to be influences how we interpret Scripture. You do just as much "fancy attempts" to paraphrase as I do. And look to what end! What I do, I do to support the idea that God is exactly what Jesus Christ revealed Him to be during His earthly mission, when that *was* His mission. You do what you do to support the idea that Jesus Christ did not reveal all we need to know about God, and that there's another side of God, which involves Him doing things that Jesus Christ never did, such as burn His enemies, and laugh at them, and mock them.



Why do you think this has to do with their view of God? What is it they think God is like which leads to these ideas?



This is so pointless; again, the pot calling the kettle black. At least I've not suggested that common words like "sin" and "pardon" don't mean what they normally mean. What's the point in your making these fruitless accusations? Why not stick to the subject?



What you do is throw out passages which disagree with what you think. Why do you object to what you perceive others doing when it agrees with what you yourself do? And, again, why take the conversation in this direction? What are you hoping to accomplish? Why not simply discuss the issues?

DA 764 discusses this.



Ditto.



In the cleansing of the temple we see these principles at work.

Back to my point.

we know that "God is love." Therefore God is kind. He is not mean-spirited. He doesn't mock people, nor laugh at people in distress. Instead, He sacrifices His life for such people.

It's important that we understand these things, because it impacts how we treat others. If we think that God is One who mocks and laughs at others in distress, this will lead us to act in a similar manner.

Tom, after studying with you I changed my mind about the words "sin" and "pardon" as used by the SOP in the context of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. I can thank you for that. However, it sounds like you are unaware I changed my mind.

Jesus is the God of the OT. The things Jesus did in the OT demonstrate the character of the Father. It was Jesus who burned alive all those people named in the OT. It was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Here are just a few of the many places Jesus caused or commanded punishment without pity, without sparing, without mercy. Are we supposed to assume Jesus did not mean it, that He was merely speaking in terms sinners could comprehend, that actually He wanted them to "utterly kill" while sparing and exhibiting pity?

Deuteronomy
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Jeremiah
13:12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Jeremiah
21:7 And afterward, saith the LORD, I will deliver Zedekiah king of Judah, and his servants, and the people, and such as are left in this city from the pestilence, from the sword, and from the famine, into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of those that seek their life: and he shall smite them with the edge of the sword; he shall not spare them, neither have pity, nor have mercy.

Ezekiel
5:11 Wherefore, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish [thee]; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity.

Ezekiel
7:3 Now [is] the end [come] upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.
7:4 And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
7:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD; An evil, an only evil, behold, is come.
7:6 An end is come, the end is come: it watcheth for thee; behold, it is come.
7:7 The morning is come unto thee, O thou that dwellest in the land: the time is come, the day of trouble [is] near, and not the sounding again of the mountains.
7:8 Now will I shortly pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger upon thee: and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense thee for all thine abominations.
7:9 And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations [that] are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD that smiteth.

Ezekiel
8:17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.
8:18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, [yet] will I not hear them.

Ezekiel
9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house.
9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
9:8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
9:9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah [is] exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
9:10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, [but] I will recompense their way upon their head.
9:11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Revelation
14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Yes, I wasn't aware of this. To the best of my knowledge, you never said this before, nor have you altered your previous opinion in any way. That is, you argued that Lucifer had not sinned when God offered him pardon, and that when God offered Lucifer pardon, it wasn't for sin. I have been thinking this is still what you think, and you didn't change your mind, despite statements that God offered to pardon Lucifer, and gave him the opportunity to confess his sin.



In a confused way. There are many statements in the NT which explain this. For example:



John tells us that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth through Jesus Christ.

If we don't understand that something special happened in terms of revelation when Christ came, we're missing the major message of the NT! (and actually, all of Scripture).

John especially makes this clear in stating that no one has seen God at any time, but His Son showed us what God is really like (John 1:18).



Much of Scripture involves God doing things which *appear* to be out of character with that which Jesus Christ revealed. We need to let Jesus Christ set our picture of God, or else we'll be led to confused ideas, such that God laughs at those in distress, or mocks them. Where did Christ do anything like this? Or teach anything like this? He didn't, of course. Instead, He died for His enemies.

If your view of God is that He mocks and laughs at His enemies, I pity you.

This reminds me of earlier, years ago, when you spoke of God being "bloodthirsty for violence." Perhaps you could flesh out a bit how you perceive God to be.

To answer your question, yes, I believe these passages are communicating to sinners in a language that they can understand, as a warning, along the lines of what I quoted from the SOP (that our habits can become so ingrained in us that we are no longer able to change our character; it's "too late" in the sense that we can no longer changes; we've been "wrecked." It's never too late in the sense that God gets tired or impatient.)

Back to your perception of God. What do you perceive this to mean?:



For example, here it says that God will fill all the inhabitants of the land with drunkenness. What do you think this means?

Lucifer was not guilty of sinning until he was convinced to pursue his course further would constitute sin and then chose to pursue it. God was willing to pardon and reinstate him until he chose to pursue his course further. In this case, pardon and repentance did not involve sin, but was granted on condition of him repenting (making a u-turn) of the course he had pursued thus far.

Yes, it was Jesus who demonstrated the love of God in the OT. And, yes, it was Jesus who demonstrated the love of God in the NT. "The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New." {DA 799.2} God is not afraid to execute justice. True, He lingers long in mercy, but comes a time when justice demands punishment. It was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Yes, Jesus also said, "I will fill all the inhabitants of this land . . . with drunkenness." Obviously Jesus isn't going to fill everyone with alcohol and cause them to be drunk. Thus, we are forced to treat it as a symbol. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." Elsewhere, regarding drunkenness, we read:

Ezekiel
23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck [it] out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Are there times when Jesus mixed literal and metaphoric language in the same passage? If so, is it reasonable to take certain parts of a single passage literally while taking other parts of it symbolically?

It's very easy to see that this is false. God offered to pardon Lucifer, and restore him, if he confessed his sin. Therefore Lucifer, at this point, had *already* been convinced (by your own words! -- definition of sin), that he was wrong. So *after* Lucifer had been convinced he was wrong, God offered him pardon, and to restore him, if he would confess his sin.



No, MM. You're contradicting yourself.

You say that he didn't sin until:

1.He was convinced that he was wrong, and chose to pursue it.

Now:

2.God offered to pardon Satan, and to restore him, *if he confessed his sin*.

Now, since sin, by *your own definition* means that Lucifer was convinced he was wrong, and chose to continue, and since God offered to restore Lucifer if he would confess his sin, you're contradicting yourself by saying that God was willing to pardon and reinstate him until he chose to purse his course further.

The truth is that it was *never* a matter that God was unwilling to pardon or reinstate, but that Lucifer had gone too far to go back.

And this is the way it always is. God is not a man, that He tires and loses His patience. God is always willing to forgive, to restore, to heal, and this willingness is demonstrated by Christ's sacrifice. Indeed, how could it be possible to more clearly reveal God's true character? Look at how Christ treated those who mocked Him, who tortured Him. This is the wonderful character of God revealed!



If you believe that God mocks, that God laughs at those in distress, I'm very sorry. I'm sorry you don't see the true picture of God's character revealed by Jesus Christ, and especially at Calvary. I hope you will see that God, rather than mocking and laughing, sacrifices and dies.

Tom, I did not say Lucifer sinned before He chose to pursue his course in open rebellion. Therefore, there was no need for him to repent of sinning to be pardoned and reinstated. His repentance would have involved him changing his course, making a u-turn.

Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.