I don't understand why you think GC 36-37 answers the following questions (please flesh it out for me, thank you):

Tom, what do you think constitutes "the act of punishment"?

And, is it the full result of sinning, that is, is it reaping what they have sown?

For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

PS - I am referring to the following passage: "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."

PPS - Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet. The pardon God made conditional on repentance didn’t involve sin; instead, it involved pursuing a new course, one that did not involve doing the things named in the passage you quoted above.

To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. Jacob, after his night of wrestling with the Angel, exclaimed, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Genesis 32:30. Jacob had been guilty of a great sin in his conduct toward Esau; but he had repented. His transgression had been forgiven, and his sin purged; therefore he could endure the revelation of God's presence. But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire. {GC 37.1}

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire. {GC 666.2}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

M: Why, then, didn’t Jesus offer to pardon A&E, whose sin was far less offensive than Lucifer’s?

T: He did.

M: Oops. I should have anticipated you not realizing I meant God offering to pardon A&E without requiring Jesus’ substitutionary death.

T: Well, you know the answer to this. This has been the argument I've been making for years, to argue against your idea. If, as you postulate, the death of Christ were necessary to enable *God* to pardon, then it would have been needed for God to have been able to pardon Lucifer. As you correctly point out, Satan's deeds were much worse than A&E's. So however necessary it was for God to pardon A&E (assuming it was necessary for God), it would have been much more so for Lucifer's case. But it wasn't. Why not? As I've quoted many, many times to you: “The life of Christ was not the price paid to the Father for our pardon; but that life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (George Fifield; God is Love)

T: What are you disagreeing with? It doesn't appear to me that you responded to what I wrote. If you did, I'm not following your train of thought.

M: You wrote, “Lucifer sinned before God offered him pardon. Then God offered him pardon, and the opportunity to be restored, if he confessed his sin.” I disagree for the reasons expressed above.

T: You think God offered Lucifer pardon *before* he sinned? And offered him the opportunity to confess his sin *before* he sinned? How would this make sense?

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form:

1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance.
2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven.
3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned.

What are you disagreeing with?

M: I disagree God offered him pardon after he sinned.

T: This doesn't appear to me to be either 1, 2, or 3. Do you agree with 1, 2, and 3?

T: See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M: Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet.

T: Of course he sinned. The things cited in the paragraph of are sins. For example: “Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint.” This is not only sin, but premeditated and purposeful sin. Note how it says "concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reference for God." This makes clear there was intent behind what Lucifer was doing, and that he knew what he was doing, and knew it was wrong. Additional proof that this is sin is the fact that God offered to pardon him.

Yet additional proof is the following: “Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God’s injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

T: See the first paragraph? Lucifer needed to stop doing this, to repent of it, to turn away from, to do a u-turn.

M: Yes, I agree. But he hadn’t sinned yet. The pardon God made conditional on repentance didn’t involve sin; instead, it involved pursuing a new course, one that did not involve doing the things named in the passage you quoted above.

T: If they weren't sin, he wouldn't have needed to stop doing them.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

M: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Do you agree with me that these are the very words Jesus spoke?

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

MM, I'd like to get back to a couple of points. First one: “Tom, after studying with you I changed my mind about the words "sin" and "pardon" as used by the SOP in the context of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. I can thank you for that. However, it sounds like you are unaware I changed my mind.”

Nothing you have been writing in the recent posts indicates you've changes your mind in any way. You're writing the same things you did before you were aware of the aforementioned statements from the SOP. They don't seem to have had the least impact on your thinking in any way, as far as I can tell. Would you please explain how you changed your mind?

Second one: “Back to your perception of God. What do you perceive this to mean?: 13:13 Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness. 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

For example, here it says that God will fill all the inhabitants of the land with drunkenness. What do you think this means?

Yes, Jesus also said, "I will fill all the inhabitants of this land . . . with drunkenness." Obviously Jesus isn't going to fill everyone with alcohol and cause them to be drunk. Thus, we are forced to treat it as a symbol. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." Elsewhere, regarding drunkenness, we read:

Ezekiel
23:32 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou shalt drink of thy sister's cup deep and large: thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.
23:33 Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.
23:34 Thou shalt even drink it and suck [it] out, and thou shalt break the sherds thereof, and pluck off thine own breasts: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Are there times when Jesus mixed literal and metaphoric language in the same passage? If so, is it reasonable to take certain parts of a single passage literally while taking other parts of it symbolically?

M: For example, when God withdrew His protection and sinners were burned alive what part of this sequence is "the act of punishment" - God withdrawing His protection or sinners being burned alive or something else?

T: Not sure what you're asking here. I believe the principles are explained in what I quoted from GC 35-37 however.

M: Do you think Satan will arbitrarily impose the seven last plagues on the wicked? Or, do you see the death and destruction portrayed by the plagues as the natural cause and effect consequence of the sins they have committed (like smoking causes cancer)?

T: Once again, I think the principles are clearly explained in GC 36-37. I asked you what you thought was happening there. If you answer that question, I think it will answer the questions you are asking me. At least, this is my perception. GC 35-37 explains how God destroys, in detail. It explains that there is no more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and the certainty of punishment than this (or words to this effect; not quoting the exact words here).

1. What is the full, inevitable result of sin?

2. How does God prevent sinners from experiencing the full, inevitable result of sin the instant they sin?

3. When will sinners experience the full, inevitable result of sin?

4. What is the “act of punishment”?

5. When sinners experience the “act of punishment” in this lifetime is it part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

6. When sinners suffer the cause and effect consequence of sin in this lifetime is it part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

7. When sinners suffer and die during the outpouring of the seven last plagues will it be a part of the full, inevitable result of sin?

8. When sinners revisit their sins during final judgment what will cause them to suffer and die?

9. When fire comes down from heaven what will cause sinners to suffer and die?

10. How will the “presence” of God cause sinners to suffer and die?

Offering pardon and actually granting pardon are two different aspects of pardon.

Also, pardon can be offered and granted in cases not involving sin.

God offered to pardon Lucifer before he sinned, but was unable to offer or grant pardon after he sinned.

T: Disagree with what? I'll state things in numbered form:

1. God offered Lucifer pardon on the condition of repentance.
2. God gave Lucifer the opportunity to confess his sin before being banished from heaven.
3. Clearly, therefore, there was a need for Lucifer to repent and be pardoned.

What are you disagreeing with?

M: I disagree God offered him pardon after he sinned.

T: This doesn't appear to me to be either 1, 2, or 3. Do you agree with 1, 2, and 3?

I agree with 1 but not with 2 and 3. Lucifer had not yet sinned, therefore, his repentance would have involved changing his course and he would have been pardoned and reinstated. He would have also confessed that to pursue his course further would constitute a sin.

Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous.

Yet additional proof is the following: “Before he was sentenced to banishment from Heaven, his course was with convincing clearness shown to be wrong, and he was granted an opportunity to confess his sin, and submit to God’s authority as just and righteous. But he chose to carry his points at all hazards. To sustain his charge of God’s injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation, even of the words and acts of the Creator. {4SP 319.1}

I disagree. Lucifer did not sin until he deliberately chose to continue pursuing his course after he was convinced to do so would constitute a sin.

M: Also, do you agree with me that it was Jesus who said, "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." What I'm asking you is do you agree these are the very words he spoke? I'm not asking if you take them at face value.

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M: Do you agree with me that these are the very words He spoke? Or, do you think someone misquoted Him?

T: Do I think God was misquoted? Are you serious? How would this work?

M: "I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh." "I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." Do you agree with me that these are the very words Jesus spoke?

T: You're asking if when God spoke the words He is recorded as speaking, if He spoke those words? Why are you asking this? Is there some alternative I should be made aware of?

M:Do I have your permission to deduce, yes, you believe Jesus (not the Father) spoke these very words (the equivalent words in Hebrew)?

20Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

22How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.

30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.