What do you mean by "just as clear"? What I meant when I asked it was do you think the interpretation in the Bible is just as clear as it is in the SOP? For example, the SOP clearly explains what the beast is, what the image beast is, and what the mark of the beast is. Are you saying the Bible interprets these symbols just as clearly as the SOP does?

I disagree. God's reality includes our reality and much more due to the fact is He much more than we are. It has nothing to do with perception. Reality is the way things really, truly are, which is different for us and God because we possess different natures and attributes. The same thing holds true regarding the differences between us and angels. That is, their reality includes ours and more because they possess different natures and attributes.

Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He shared this promise before He suffered and died on Calvary, which, necessarily, implies He knew He would succeed on the cross. There was no doubt in His mind about it. He knew He was going to succeed on the cross. Nowhere in the Bible does it represent the Father or the Son expressing doubt about it.

Let's stop here. "God's reality" doesn't make sense. I've explained this several times now. We're just talking past each other because you're ignoring my point here.

I've explained several times what "reality" means, I've quoted definitions, and explained why the phrase "God's reality" doesn't make sense, yet you keep using it, and without any response to what I wrote explaining why this doesn't make sense.

"Reality" is what is, not the perception of what is, which is how you are using the term.

The way things truly are doesn't change from person to person. One's perception is different, for the reasons you point out, but perception is not reality, except for God, in which case it is.

Jesus Christ knew there was risk involved in what He was doing, as did the Father. The idea that there was no risk greatly diminishes the sacrifice.

"the way things really, truly are"
"which is different"

Could you explain how that makes sense in the same paragraph? Could you explain how our natures and attributes affect how things really, truly are?

Is reality the same or different to God and us?

One place you say it's different. Then you say it's the same. I have no idea what you believe.

If God's reality is different, that the future has already played out, but our future reality has not played out, is it possible that God's reality is different from our reality and since His reality is different, the future that has played out in His reality is different from the future that will play out in our reality?

Changing your last question a bit, kland: Given that God's reality is different from our reality and the future that has played out in His reality, is this future different from the future that will play out in our reality?

This is an interesting question! It leads to problems however it's answered.

If the answer is no, the futures aren't different, then we have a contradiction, since God's future is "already played out," and hence fixed, but ours is "wide open," and hence not fixed.

On the other hand, if we say the futures are different, that doesn't make sense either, since God's future has "already played out." That would mean that our future would be different then one which has already happened, which doesn't make any more sense than saying our past can be different than that which has already happened.

So there are problems either way this question is answered.

This discussion reminds me, I should take some time one day to read Don Quijote..

Tom, unless you agree God exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously without altering how we experience time and space we cannot discuss this topic. For similar reasons atheists and believers cannot discuss the existence of God. Basic beliefs are prerequisite to discuss certain topics.