M: Punishment is not force or violence. It is justice. Also, Satan did not invent punishment or justice. They are traits, attributes of God's character. In the passages above, Ellen clearly says God "executes His laws", He "inflicts punishment", He punishes sinners "with fire". The "wrath of God . . . is the general conflagration" in which sinners "will consume with fire". It is He who "destroys" sinners. "He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man." People who "complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God . . . are uttering the words Satan utters".

T: I assume you mean God's punishment is justice. I agree, and GC 35-37 explains how this justice is administered. . . Punishment does not mean setting people on fire. You're trying to avoid the issues just by relabeling things. Changing the label doesn't change the fact that, under your view, God would be doing violent things, destroying, and killing people, all of which are things that pertain to Satan's government, and did not exist in God's government before Satan invented sin, and have never been a part of God's government.

M: Satan is not at liberty to cause death and destruction at will or as he pleases. Holy angels work to prevent it. The only time Satan is free to cause death and destruction is when Jesus commands holy angels to cease preventing it. However, Jesus also commands holy angels to work to ensure evil angels do not exceed the limits established by God. Death and destruction under these circumstances (i.e. when sinners exceed the limits of divine forbearance) serve as God's "act of punishment". No, it doesn't mean Jesus and Satan are partners in meting out justice and judgment.

1. God may bear long with the sins of men, but in his own time he will vindicate his authority. Although the wicked may say, "My way is hid from the Lord," yet when his interposition is needed, he will show that he beholds all the works of the children of men. In the days of Noah, the wickedness of man became so great that it was necessary for God to assert his authority and punish the transgressors of his law. A crisis had come, and the Lord declared the limits of his forbearance toward that guilty race. He sent his faithful servant with a message of warning, giving them one hundred and twenty years in which to turn from their sins. They rejected and despised God's love, and when the measure of their iniquity was full; when the boundaries of divine mercy were passed, the Lord swept that wicked race from the earth by the waters of the flood. {ST, December 15, 1881 par. 13}

2. We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

3. In His dealings with the human race, God bears long with the impenitent. He uses His appointed agencies to call men to allegiance, and offers them His full pardon if they will repent. But because God is long-suffering, men presume on His mercy. "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." The patience and long-suffering of God, which should soften and subdue the soul, has an altogether different influence upon the careless and sinful. It leads them to cast off restraint, and strengthens them in resistance. They think that the God who has borne so much from them will not heed their perversity. If we lived in a dispensation of immediate retribution, offenses against God would not occur so often. But though delayed, the punishment is none the less certain. There are limits even to the forbearance of God. The boundary of His long-suffering may be reached, and then He will surely punish. And when He does take up the case of the presumptuous sinner, He will not cease till He has made a full end. {3BC 1166.1}

4. Oh what can we say to awaken the soul's interest to make no compromise with Satan; but make thorough work for repentance before it is everlastingly too late? How can we make them consider that there are limits to the forbearance of God, and that it is possible for them to pass the limit of the forbearance of God, as did Judas and Saul? God allows nations a certain period of probation; but there is a point they can reach and can pass, and then iniquity accumulated will receive not mercy, not longer forbearance, but an outbreak of the indignation of God, and be visited with punishment unmixed with mercy. God will arise in mighty power, and show, though slow to anger, He will not acquit the wicked. The wickedness of each generation is not forgotten. Each century of increased profligacy has treasured up wrath, and Christ said unto those who resisted all His mercy, all the blessings He presented to them, addressing the rejecters of His salvation, "Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers," for the blood of all the prophets which had been shed from the foundation of the world should be required of the nation He addressed. They had the beacon warning in the jealousies, in the hatred, in the despisings of warnings and messages sent to them and God's punishment came upon them for their cruelty, and notwithstanding all this, those who separated from God repeated the history of their fathers, and thus it is in our day. {1888 1202.1}

You seem to think when Jesus withdraws His protection and permits evil angels to cause death and destruction that the resulting death and destruction constitutes Satan exercising force and violence. I, on the other hand, think it constitutes justice and judgment, the "act of punishment".

Again, here's what she said about the "act of punishment":

1. "In the days of Noah, the wickedness of man became so great that it was necessary for God to assert his authority and punish the transgressors of his law. . . the Lord swept that wicked race from the earth by the waters of the flood."

In this case, the "act of punishment" involved millions of men, women, and children being drowned alive. Did Jesus do anything that enabled the flood? If not, who or what do you think did?

2. "Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty."

In this case, the "act of punishment" involved Roman soldiers killing thousands of men, women, and children. Did Jesus do anything that enabled their death? If not, who or what do you think did?

3. "If we lived in a dispensation of immediate retribution, offenses against God would not occur so often. But though delayed, the punishment is none the less certain. There are limits even to the forbearance of God. The boundary of His long-suffering may be reached, and then He will surely punish. And when He does take up the case of the presumptuous sinner, He will not cease till He has made a full end."

In cases like these, the "act of punishment" involves death and destruction. Does Jesus do anything to enable it? If not, who or what does?

4. "God allows nations a certain period of probation; but there is a point they can reach and can pass, and then iniquity accumulated will receive not mercy, not longer forbearance, but an outbreak of the indignation of God, and be visited with punishment unmixed with mercy. . . God's punishment came upon them for their cruelty".

In cases like these, the "act of punishment" involves death and destruction. Does Jesus do anything to enable it? If not, who or what does?

By the way, the main thing I wanted to draw attention to on this thread is the fact Ellen emphasized one of the main things secured by the death of Jesus was the vindication of the law.

These are all the same as GC 35-57, IMO. God does things to prevent sin/Satan causing death and destruction, which could be "in a thousand different ways." When people have reject the Holy Spirit to the point to where they have totally rejected God, God leaves them to the result of their choice.

This seems a bit confusing to me. Are you saying that when Satan causes destruction and death, he's not exercising force or using violence?

This is to counter the arguments of antinomian Evengelicals who say that Christ's death means it's not necessary to keep the law.