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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128715
11/08/10 08:15 PM
11/08/10 08:15 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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As incredible as it seems, do you think there might be something to the Yin-Yang comment I had made in the past? The concept and terms seem to me to fit in more than one way. From part of Wikipedia: Sorry, but I'm not following your point.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128716
11/08/10 08:17 PM
11/08/10 08:17 PM
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Active Member 2012
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I think Mikes last statement is clear. I disagree with it and I think the bible disagrees with it. Maybe now when there need remain no question on where Mike stands on this question, the next phase of the discussion can commence? Assuming the discussion is going somewhere beyond figuring out what Mike thinks about this subject. What's the next phase? Can you get it going?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#128717
11/08/10 08:29 PM
11/08/10 08:29 PM
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Active Member 2012
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T:Re: paragraph 1.
1.When you say that Jesus is in control, not other things, do you mean to imply by this that the things which happen are His will? (by His will, I mean things He wants to have happen).
2.When you say He "manipulates" the outcome of our choices, that doesn't sound too good. Do you understand why? Is this really the word you wish to use?
3.It sounds like your conception is that God uses Satan like a puppet. Is this correct?
M:1. He doesn’t want people to make sinful choices. But since they do, it is Jesus’ responsibility to ensure the outcome serves God’s ultimate goal, namely, a great controversy that ends favorably for God. I agree with this, and what I believe Jesus does to ensure the outcome serves God's ultimate goal is to reveal God's character. That's the only way to ensure the Great Controversy ends favorably. M:2. The word “manages” can be used in its place. I’m referring to Jesus manipulating inanimate things so that our choices play out in ways that best serve God’s ultimate goal. What does this mean? However, Jesus also exercises His powers of influence to ensure people do certain things that best serve God’s ultimate goal (Daniel 10:13 is an example). How is this an example? 3. Jesus knows exactly what Satan will do and uses it to serve God’s ultimate goal. Could what Satan does be used to serve God's ultimate goal if Jesus didn't know exactly what Satan will do? Re. Paragraph 2. 1.I said nothing about Jesus and Satan managing matters in similar ways. I spoke of them acting the same. I don't see any difference between how you perceive Satan and God to act. Both seem unspeakable cruel, severe, and harsh. Although if Satan is God's puppet, it seems like God should be the responsible one for Satan's cruelty. That is, if Satan is simply carrying out God's orders, which appears to be what you're saying. 2.I guess I should clarify if this is what you're saying. Do you perceive that when Satan acts, he is simply carrying out God's orders? 3.It looks like you're writing that Jesus determines a punishment, lets the evil angels do what they want to cause havoc and destruction, and then sends the holy angels to mop up any left over maiming/killing/torture/cruelty/violence that remains to finish up the punishment, since the evil angels can't be trusted. You don't see a problem with this sort of picture of God? You don't see any disconnect between this and the life of Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry? I find this picture incredible. M:1. Satan is not free to do as he pleases. He can only do that which Jesus permits him to do. Unlike Satan, Jesus is totally free to do as He pleases.[/quote] This doesn't seem to have anything to do with my point 1 above, which had to do with your idea that Satan and God do the same things (i.e., their difference is not one of behavior; they both maim/destroy/kill/use force to get their way, etc.) 2. I suppose Satan is free not to do what Jesus permits him to do. But it seems unlikely he would reject an opportunity to cause death and destruction. This isn't responsive either. I asked if Satan was carrying out Jesus' orders when he causes death and destruction. 3. I wrote, “Satan is not at liberty to wield power indiscriminately. He cannot cause death and destruction until he receives permission from Jesus. Nevertheless, Jesus doesn’t leave it up to Satan to decide what to do. It is Jesus who determines what serves as suitable punishment. And then, because Satan cannot be trusted, Jesus also commands holy angels to do whatever it takes to ensure evil angels do not exceed His established limits.” The holy angels are on scene to ensure evil angels do not cause more death and destruction than permitted by Jesus. Ok, I misread the exceeds part. But you would agree with the thought? That is, if the evil angels don't cause enough death and destruction, God would send holy angels to "mop up"? T:1.I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you talking about the final judgment? If so, it appears you don't believe that sin causes suffering on its own accord, or, if it does, not enough. I suppose you must believe sin causes some suffering. So I suppose God makes allowances for that, to your way of thinking, and only imposes additional suffering on top of that to get to right quota of suffering that justice demands.
M:1. I wasn’t referring to the final judgment. The emotional and physical suffering sinners experience in this lifetime is not, in fact, the real result of sin. Sure it is. Without sin there would be no suffering. The fact is if Jesus allowed sinners to experience the full, inevitable result of sin the instant they sin no one would survive the first sin. In fact, the human race would have ended with the death of A&E. During the final judgment, it is the fire light of God’s physical person and presence that will cause sinners to experience the full, inevitable result of sin, namely, emotional and physical suffering that ends in death. I don't understand why you think the problem is a physical one. I believe the problem is a moral one. Human beings are moral beings, dependent upon sound moral principles to live eternally.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128723
11/09/10 02:45 PM
11/09/10 02:45 PM
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Midland
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As incredible as it seems, do you think there might be something to the Yin-Yang comment I had made in the past? The concept and terms seem to me to fit in more than one way. From part of Wikipedia: Sorry, but I'm not following your point. I was referring to if you thought there was an underlying basis or similarities between Yin-Yang and the post you responded to.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128726
11/09/10 04:11 PM
11/09/10 04:11 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Sweden
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I think Mikes last statement is clear. I disagree with it and I think the bible disagrees with it. Maybe now when there need remain no question on where Mike stands on this question, the next phase of the discussion can commence? Assuming the discussion is going somewhere beyond figuring out what Mike thinks about this subject. What's the next phase? Can you get it going? I realised I dont know what the next phase is in this particular thread.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: vastergotland]
#128732
11/09/10 04:59 PM
11/09/10 04:59 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Ok, Thomas. Appreciate your comments.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128733
11/09/10 05:01 PM
11/09/10 05:01 PM
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I was referring to if you thought there was an underlying basis or similarities between Yin-Yang and the post you responded to. I think it's different. Yin-Yang is an overall concept involving balance, as I understand it, as opposed to mutually contradictory ideas (I'm assuming this is what you were asking about). But I don't know it well enough to comment positively.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: Tom]
#128743
11/09/10 07:15 PM
11/09/10 07:15 PM
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I guess I saw Yin-Yang as taking contradictory ideas and saying they are balanced and part of the same. One of the key sentences I saw was:
"Though they are opposing, they are not in opposition to one another."
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: kland]
#128745
11/09/10 07:19 PM
11/09/10 07:19 PM
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But neither am I suggesting that the next phase of this thread should be a discussion of Yin-Yang.
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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen?
[Re: kland]
#128749
11/09/10 07:40 PM
11/09/10 07:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I guess I saw Yin-Yang as taking contradictory ideas and saying they are balanced and part of the same. One of the key sentences I saw was:
"Though they are opposing, they are not in opposition to one another." This seems like a different concept to me. The mutually contradictory statements are in opposition to one another. However, I don't really know much about this.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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