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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128633
11/05/10 02:29 AM
11/05/10 02:29 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
I disagree. If Jesus had failed to obey the law perfectly He would have lost the great controversy and would have been forced to destroy every living FMA throughout the universe.


Where do you get such an idea? Why do you think this would make sense? Please explain your thinking here. Is it to cover His tracks, so nobody would know what happened? If you can't beat them, join them? That sort of thing?

Your comment is so bizarre, I failed to note that is has nothing do with what I wrote. At least, I don't see any connection. I was explaining how the Great Controversy has to do primarily with God. I don't see how anyone could find fault with this idea. What is greater: God, or the law?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128670
11/06/10 03:33 PM
11/06/10 03:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, God must prove that His law is holy, just, and good in order to prove that He, too, is holy, just, and good. If Jesus had failed at perfectly obeying the law it would have failed to prove God is holy, just, and good. In the following passages Ellen makes it very clear had Jesus failed He would have lost the human family.

Quote:
If He had responded by an impatient word or look, if He had conceded to His brothers by even one wrong act, He would have failed of being a perfect example. Thus He would have failed of carrying out the plan for our redemption. Had He even admitted that there could be an excuse for sin, Satan would have triumphed, and the world would have been lost. This is why the tempter worked to make His life as trying as possible, that He might be led to sin. {DA 88.2}

Had Jesus yielded for a moment, had He changed His course in the least particular to save Himself, Satan's agencies would have triumphed, and the world would have been lost. {DA 486.1}

Had He yielded on one point, the human family would have been lost. {HP 76.4}

Though enduring most terrible temptations, Christ did not fail or become discouraged. He was fighting the battle in our behalf, and had He faltered, had He yielded to temptation, the human family would have been lost. {SD 24.2}

For a period of time Christ was on probation. He took humanity on Himself, to stand the test and trial which the first Adam failed to endure. Had He failed in His test and trial, He would have been disobedient to the voice of God, and the world would have been lost. {5BC 1082.6}

If Jesus could have been led to do one wrong act, or to speak one impatient word, He could not have been our Saviour, and the whole world would have been lost. Satan knew this, and it was for this reason that he tried so hard to lead Jesus into sin. {SJ 38.8}

Had he failed on one point, in reference to the law, all would have been lost; he would not have been a perfect offering, nor could he have satisfied the demands of the law; but he conquered where Adam failed, and by loyalty to God, under the severest trials, became a perfect pattern and example for our imitation, and he is able to succor those who are tempted. {ST, November 24, 1887 par. 10}

The mystery of the gospel had been spoken in Eden when the lost pair were first in the guilt of transgression, for God said to the serpent, "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." If Satan could have touched the head with his specious temptations, the human family would have been lost; but the Lord had made known the purpose and plan of the mystery of grace; for "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {ST, April 25, 1892 par. 9}

If Jesus had sinned He would have lost the world. Since, as you say, the eternal security of the entire universe rested on Jesus succeeding on earth, it stands to reason He would have lost every living FMAs throughout the entire universe. Jesus could not have continued granting them life under such circumstances.

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128682
11/07/10 05:43 AM
11/07/10 05:43 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Jesus could not have continued granting them life under such circumstances.


Why not? To destroy the evidence? (i.e., get rid of the witnesses). Then God could start over, create new beings who had no memory of His failure, and what He had done would have remained hidden? Is this your thinking?

Getting back to the subject at hand:

Quote:
Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven. He sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. He led them to doubt the word of God, and to distrust His goodness. Because God is a God of justice and terrible majesty, Satan caused them to look upon Him as severe and unforgiving. Thus he drew men to join him in rebellion against God, and the night of woe settled down upon the world. (DA 21)


This really explains well what was going on.

1.Lucifer/Satan desired to be first in heaven.
2.He sought to divert the attention of God's creatures from God to himself.
3.To accomplish this goal, he misrepresented God's character.
4.He did so by attributing to God his own evil attributes of character.

This is it in a nutshell. Like the parable of the tares and the wheat, God had to allow time for the principles of the respective parties to be revealed. Who was telling the truth? This was the question that needed to be answered.

An important part in the story is that God did not answer the charges Himself, but through a representative, who was Jesus Christ. Going on from the above quote:

Quote:
The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Mal. 4:2.


It's too bad that the statement that the exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government is believed by so few. Really sad, especially how clearly this truth was revealed in the life of Jesus Christ. There's certainly no hint of the exercise of force being the means to accomplish one's goals in His life.

This is the principle of Satan's government, and the principle of self-seeking in general. Do whatever is necessary for the good of self, including the use of force, if necessary. But this isn't what love is about, which *is* the principle of God's government.

The reason, or a reason, and important reason, why Christ was chosen to disprove Satan's claims is that God does not speak of Himself. The Father testifies of the Son, and the Son testifies of the Father. God is a being who lives not for Himself, and this is seen clearly in Christ.

Christ demonstrated what God looks like; He was truly God in human flesh. He won the Great Controversy by revealing the truth about God, and the truth about Satan.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128701
11/08/10 04:02 PM
11/08/10 04:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, we need to consider the following insights in light of your ideas regarding God and "the act of punishment":

Quote:
As they reasoned in Noah's day they reason today, when the warning message is proclaimed to fear God and keep His commandments. The wrath of God is soon to fall on all the sinful and disobedient, and they will perish in the general conflagration. Professed servants of Christ who are unfaithful, who do not reverence God and with fear prepare for the terrible future event, will lull themselves to carnal security with their fallacious reasoning, as they did in Noah's day. "God is too good and too merciful [they reason] to save just a few who keep the Sabbath and believe the message of warning. The great men and the good men, the philosophers and men of wisdom would see the Sabbath and the shortness of time, if it were true." They do not believe a merciful God who made men will consume them with fire because they do not believe the warnings given. This, they reason, is not in accordance with God. . . . {12MR 207.1}

God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. {12MR 207.2}

God's goodness and long forbearance, His patience and mercy exercised to His subjects, will not hinder Him from punishing the sinner who refused to be obedient to His requirements. It is not for a man--a criminal against God's holy law, pardoned only through the great sacrifice He made in giving His Son to die for the guilty because His law was changeless--to dictate to God. After all this effort on the part of God to preserve the sacred and exalted character of His law, if men, through the sophistry of the devil, turn the mercy and condescension of God into a curse, they must suffer the penalty. Because Christ died they consider they have liberty to transgress God's holy law that condemns the transgressor, and would complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God. They are uttering the words Satan utters to millions, to quiet their conscience in rebellion against God. {12MR 208.1}

In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {12MR 208.2}

The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {12MR 208.3}

Ellen clearly says God "executes His laws" (not Satan), He "inflicts punishment", He punishes sinners "with fire". The "wrath of God . . . is the general conflagration" in which sinners "will consume with fire". He "destroys" sinners (not Satan). "He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man."

People who "complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God . . . are uttering the words Satan utters".

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128705
11/08/10 05:15 PM
11/08/10 05:15 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Who did she write to, I wonder. What was the circumstance of her picking up the pen. What is the context she is writing within, in the totality of her own work?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: vastergotland] #128718
11/08/10 07:36 PM
11/08/10 07:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Ellen clearly says God "executes His laws" (not Satan), He "inflicts punishment"...


Is it your understanding that the principles of GC 35-37 mean that Satan (not God) is inflicting punishment? If not, your comment here is difficult to understand. Could you elaborate please? I mean, in GC 35-37 we see that God punished Jerusalem by allowing them to experience the results of the choice they had made. Is this Satan (not God) inflicting punishment?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128751
11/10/10 12:29 AM
11/10/10 12:29 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, before we move away from the content and context of 12MR 208, it would be nice if you addressed my observations.

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128753
11/10/10 03:03 AM
11/10/10 03:03 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
As we've discussed before, I believe that this statement needs to be considered in the light of other statements she made, in particular GC 35-37. Also DA first chapter and "It Is Finished," which say that the exercise of force is not a principle of God's government.

Also there are the points related to the principles of God's government that I've been raising to consider. That is, if we postulate that God uses violence, death, maiming etc. to accomplish His goals, that begs the question as to why God would use the methods of the enemy. These elements did not exist before sin came about. Satan is the author of sin and all its results. These things (violence, killing, etc.) clearly belong to the government of Satan. There can be no question about that. The question is if they also belong to the kingdom of God.

It seems to me that the respective governments of Satan and God have no points of intersection. This is a new thought (just thought of it right this moment), so I'd have to consider it more, but it seems at first consideration to me to be a valid observation. That is to say that there are NO points in common between the government of Satan and the government of God. This is to my way of thinking. But to your way of thinking this isn't true, as they share in common killing, destruction, maiming, using force to get one's way, etc.

Another point to bear in mind is that inspiration often presents God as doing that which He permits.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Tom] #128772
11/10/10 06:02 PM
11/10/10 06:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Punishment is not force or violence. It is justice. Also, Satan did not invent punishment or justice. They are traits, attributes of God's character.

In the passages above, Ellen clearly says God "executes His laws", He "inflicts punishment", He punishes sinners "with fire". The "wrath of God . . . is the general conflagration" in which sinners "will consume with fire". It is He who "destroys" sinners. "He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man." People who "complain of its strictness and its penalty as severe and unlike God . . . are uttering the words Satan utters".

Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ. [Re: Mountain Man] #128776
11/10/10 08:14 PM
11/10/10 08:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Punishment is not force or violence.


Agreed. At least, it shouldn't involve force or violence. Some punish with force and violence.

Quote:
It is justice.


I assume you mean God's punishment is justice. I agree, and GC 35-37 explains how this justice is administered. E.g.

Quote:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.


Quote:
Also, Satan did not invent punishment or justice.


He invented violence, use of force to get ones way, cruelty and torture.

Quote:
They are traits, attributes of God's character.


Punishment does not mean setting people on fire. You're trying to avoid the issues just by relabeling things. Changing the label doesn't change the fact that, under your view, God would be doing violent things, destroying, and killing people, all of which are things that pertain to Satan's government, and did not exist in God's government before Satan invented sin, and have never been a part of God's government.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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