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Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128767
11/10/10 05:49 PM
11/10/10 05:49 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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Perhaps I need to reconsider it. Maybe contradictory and opposition don't equate with opposing? Not sure, but I think I have an idea of what you meant by it being different.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: kland] #128769
11/10/10 06:25 PM
11/10/10 06:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Perhaps I need to reconsider it. Maybe contradictory and opposition don't equate with opposing? Not sure, but I think I have an idea of what you meant by it being different.


The thing said "opposing, but not opposing one another," right? Or something like that (too lazy to look). So I think this is rather like saying "different, but not contradictory."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128770
11/10/10 06:50 PM
11/10/10 06:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins. This is exactly what would have happened to the evil angels if God had not prevented it. Listen:

To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {GC 504.1}

Christ, in counsel with His Father, instituted the system of sacrificial offerings; that death, instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to a victim which should prefigure the great and perfect offering of the Son of God. {1SM 230.1}

And the reason why man was not annihilated was because God so loved him that He made the gift of His dear Son that He should suffer the penalty of his transgression. {FW 21.2}

The world was in rebellion against him, and he might have swept away all rebellion by annihilating those who were in resistance to his will; but instead of this, he set before men the value of life, the attractions of the heavenly world, and he invites every son and daughter of Adam to seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. {ST, July 17, 1893 par. 7}

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128773
11/10/10 07:08 PM
11/10/10 07:08 PM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.


No they don't. Considering the first few quotes.

Quote:
To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1}


This is a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}


Same point. God's glory is related to love. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything about "radiant light" destroying them.

Quote:
But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}


This is dealing with character, which the context makes clear. I'll post this later.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128774
11/10/10 07:19 PM
11/10/10 07:19 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's what you quoted:

Quote:
But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}


Stopped too soon! Continuing:

Quote:
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.


The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ:

Quote:
(T)he revealer of the character of God.


There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128775
11/10/10 08:07 PM
11/10/10 08:07 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding DA 764, it also says, in the immediate context:

Quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.


Choosing the service of sin results in death because of separating oneself from life.

Nothing in the quotes cited says anything about "the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy". Far from EGW making this clear, it's clear you're reading in this idea into the quotes. Don't know why.

Let's consider the implications of the two views. Under the viewpoint you hold, God gives certain requirements, and if one doesn't abide by those requirements, God kills the offenders in a very physical and painful way. Do you agree with this?

Under the view I hold, sin causes terrible things to those who practice it, and God does His best to rescue His creatures from these ill effects. The only way to avoid the suffering of the afterlife would be to not disclose to the wicked the truth, as it is the revelation of the truth that causes their suffering.

So two very different ideas about what's going on.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128795
11/11/10 06:19 PM
11/11/10 06:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
M: In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.

T: No they don't. Considering the first few quotes. “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1} This is a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

The “presence of God” is physical. The fact His presence “consumes” sinners with their sins is physical.

Quote:
T: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1} Same point. God's glory is related to love. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything about "radiant light" destroying them.

Again, “His very presence” is physical. The “light of the glory of God” is physical. “Will destroy them” is physical.

Quote:
T: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} This is dealing with character, which the context makes clear. I'll post this later.

“Came before God” is physical. “They were destroyed” is physical. “Shall be consumed” is physical. “Destroyed with the brightness” is physical. “The light of the glory of God” is physical. “Imparts life” is physical. “Will slay” is physical.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Tom] #128796
11/11/10 06:50 PM
11/11/10 06:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Here's what you quoted: "But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

Stopped too soon! Continuing: "In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence."

The light of the glory of God is the truth about His character. "Light" = "Truth". "Glory" = "Character." The context makes this clear. Note, Jesus Christ: "(T)he revealer of the character of God." There you go! Not "radiant light" at all, but character!

"His very presence" was physical. "Abide in His presence" was physical.

"The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked." It sounds like you believe this statement can be taken to literally mean - "The truth about God's character will slay the wicked." If so, will wicked humans and angels comprehend the truth about God's character until it kills them?

Also, what part does the following fire play as it relates to wicked humans and angels and the truth about God's character:

Quote:
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19. {GC 672.1}

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6. {GC 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11. {GC 673.3}

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven." This fire will serve to punish wicked humans and angels according to their sinfulness.

"The weapons concealed in [the earth's] depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm." It is not clear, however, if this fire will cause them to suffer and die.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: Mountain Man] #128822
11/12/10 02:59 PM
11/12/10 02:59 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
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MM, the words were "physical presence", not physical results, not spiritual presence.

Re: God's Strange Act: What is it, when does it happen? [Re: kland] #128833
11/12/10 08:14 PM
11/12/10 08:14 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M: In the following passages, Ellen makes it clear that it is the physical presence of God’s glorious, radiant light that will destroy, consume, exterminate sinners with their sins.

T: No they don't. Considering the first few quotes. “To sin, wherever found, God is a consuming fire. If you choose sin, and refuse to separate from it, the presence of God, which consumes sin, must consume you. {MB 62.1} This is a spiritual problem, not a physical one.

M:The “presence of God” is physical. The fact His presence “consumes” sinners with their sins is physical.

T: “By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1} Same point. God's glory is related to love. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything about "radiant light" destroying them.

M:Again, “His very presence” is physical. The “light of the glory of God” is physical. “Will destroy them” is physical.

T: “But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4} This is dealing with character, which the context makes clear. I'll post this later.

M:“Came before God” is physical. “They were destroyed” is physical. “Shall be consumed” is physical. “Destroyed with the brightness” is physical. “The light of the glory of God” is physical. “Imparts life” is physical. “Will slay” is physical.


I'll treat these altogether. Consider Christ's cleansing of the temple, when the money-changers all fled. They all fled because of Christ's presence. But the problem was a spiritual one, not a physical one. His physical presence caused problems with their minds (guilt/fear/consciousness of sin, etc.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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