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Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: vastergotland] #129026
11/19/10 05:05 PM
11/19/10 05:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: vastergotland
Mike, the issue here is that Ellen did not write 25 questions to be or not to be asked. She wrote a book. This suffers the same faults as any other prooftexting, the detachement of context. What I would like to have you answer is, is there any reason why it is more appropriate to remove the context from around these questions compared with keeping the text as it was once written?

TM is a compilation. The section I quoted from at the beginning of this thread is from a small tract that was available to everyone. In TM it's chapter 16, pages 425-456.

Do you feel the 25 questions she asked is out of context?

Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129032
11/19/10 05:53 PM
11/19/10 05:53 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Hmm, yes, I see. Though it seems to be the kind of compilation where full letters are piled on top of each other, which is decidedly better than the kind of compilation where half sentences are joined together.
http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/misc/Tes...IRD_EDITION.htm
There also appears to be a historical context provided with the book:
http://www.gilead.net/egw/books/misc/Tes...AL_FOREWORD.htm
It is in chapter 19 in this particular printing of the book, and it is unclear where it starts as this is not marked out as many of the previous letters are marked in preceding chapters.

So, the paragraphs you quoted are out of context as far as lacking the 15 pages that Ellen wrote before them. I am sure she did not intend her letter to be read from the 16th page and forward but expected her reader to start at the first page.

The questions as you piled them in a list are definetly out of context. Where do you even begin to claim context for that list? In listing them in such a fashion, I would say it is no longer her questions but yours. Claimng they are hers as presented is little more than namedropping and appeal to authority for your own idea.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: vastergotland] #129057
11/20/10 06:48 PM
11/20/10 06:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, do you think those kinds of questions are appropriate for us to ask and answer nowadays? Also, do you agree with the following insights:

Quote:
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Corinthians 13:5). Closely criticize the temper, the disposition, the thoughts, words, inclinations, purposes, and deeds. How can we ask intelligently for the things we need unless we prove by the Scriptures the condition of our spiritual health? {1SM 89.1}

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Corinthians 13:5). Some conscientious souls, on reading this, immediately begin to criticize their every feeling and emotion. But this is not correct self-examination. It is not the petty feelings and emotions that are to be examined. The life, the character, is to be measured by the only standard of character, God's holy law. The fruit testifies to the character of the tree. Our works, not our feelings, bear witness of us. {HP 131.2}

Dear brethren, “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith.” [2 Corinthians 13:5.] Many may respond, “Why, yes, I am in the faith; I believe every point of the truth.” But do you practice what you believe? Are you at peace with God and with your brethren? Can you pray with sincerity, “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors”? [Matthew 6:12.] Or are you estranged from your brother, because you think he has injured you? Are there no heart-burnings among you? Is there no bitterness in your hearts, no envying, no jealousy, no evil surmising, no misjudging of your brethren? Is there no emulation, no desire for special favor or honors, no wish to have the supremacy? These feelings should not exist among Christians. {GW92 429.2}

I warn all who profess the name of Christ to closely examine them-selves and make full and thorough confession of all their wrongs, that they may go beforehand to judgment, and that the recording angel may write pardon opposite their names. {1T 263}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things. {SC 58.2}

This daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. (GW 275)

Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129075
11/21/10 03:50 PM
11/21/10 03:50 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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The expression "heart-burnings" in the quote above got me wondering what it means. At first it seemed like something good. But a quick investigation revealed quite the opposite. Here's how it is used elsewhere:

Christ can give his peace to those only who surrender their will and their way to his method and plans. Restless cravings and heart-burnings bring no joy, no happiness, but only sadness and misery to the soul. He who cherishes them, views all things in a distorted light, and thinks that others who do not view matters as he does, do not appreciate his individual importance and worth. We may be complete in Jesus Christ only as we are emptied of self. When our life is hid with Christ in God, self is lost, submerged in the breadth, length, depth, and height of infinite love. Let the burden of every soul be to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge. {HM, December 1, 1894 par. 18}

The youth may profess to have great love for the cause of God; but while they are unreconciled to their companions, they are unreconciled to God. It is these heart-burnings, these selfish feelings that are cherished, that keep the blessing of God out of our hearts and homes. Let the love of Christ flow into the heart and transform the character, or we shall not be children of God, we shall not be Bible Christians. Christ is nothing to us if we do not permit him to enlighten the understanding, purify the affections, purge the dross from us, and cleanse from our garments every spot and stain, clothing us with his own righteousness. {YI, January 13, 1898 par. 6}

Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129109
11/23/10 05:21 PM
11/23/10 05:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Does anyone else, besides Tom and Thomas, feel that the 25 questions Ellen asked are inappropriate for us to answer?

Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129114
11/23/10 07:14 PM
11/23/10 07:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, I actually wrote this:

Quote:
I think we'd be best spending our time meditating upon the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes.

The followers of Christ are actuated by a higher motivation than concern for self.

I believe that if it is our hearts desire to honor Christ, the question of our salvation will take care of itself.


I made no comment about the questions being inappropriate. I don't think Thomas made a comment like this either.

I think you should be more careful with these types of comments (i.e., that so and so said the questions were inappropriate, if they didn't actually say that. You could write that you are concluding this, as that would be true.)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129136
11/24/10 06:09 PM
11/24/10 06:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, here's what I wrote to you:

Quote:
Tom, do you think the 25 questions Ellen asked are appropriate for us today? Or, do you think they were merely rhetorical, asked for effect, not intended to be answered?

Referring to the questions, Ellen wrote, "You need not be in uncertainty in this matter." "Let not the question remain in perilous uncertainty." "Let no one deceive his own soul in this matter."

You completely ignored my questions and responded as you stated above. Technically you did not say questions like the 25 questions Ellen asked are inappropriate for us today, but your obvious avoidance of my questions seriously implied it. What motivated you to sidestep my questions and to respond as you did? Why didn't you actually answer my questions?

Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129145
11/24/10 07:15 PM
11/24/10 07:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What I wrote states how I feel. I think there are better ways to spend our time than dealing with these questions.

I didn't make any statement about the appropriateness of the questions.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: Mountain Man] #129149
11/24/10 09:00 PM
11/24/10 09:00 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Does anyone else, besides Tom and Thomas, feel that the 25 questions Ellen asked are inappropriate for us to answer?
You got this backwards Mike, I said it was inappropriate for you to ask them in this manner, and nothing about the appropriateness for anyone to answer them.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Ask and answer the question - Am I saved or lost? [Re: vastergotland] #129161
11/25/10 02:33 AM
11/25/10 02:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you.

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