Yes, I agree the death of Jesus was necessary to redeem penitent sinners. However, why don't you think the "other way" you mentioned would have rendered humans and angels eternally secure?

Why would it have rendered them eternally secure had A&E succeeded but not if they had failed?

Also, why did Jesus wait 4,000 years to die on the cross?

Did it disadvantage those who lived and died before the incarnation and death of Jesus?

Jesus teaching on church discipline from Matthew 18:

Causing to Stumble

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
The Parable of the Wandering Sheep

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven. [11] [a]
12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Dealing With Sin in the Church

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 “Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 “At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ 27 The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 “But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred silver coins.[i] He grabbed him and began to choke him. ‘Pay back what you owe me!’ he demanded.
29 “His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it back.’
30 “But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were outraged and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”


Sin must be dealt with carefully, first by repeatedly talking to the offender to make absolutely certain the situation and that the person is unrepentant.
The church as a whole will decide on the matter, and its decision stands. But if any person deals unjustly with a presumed offender, it would be best for the person who bore false witness against a child of God to go and drown him/her-self.
Also, as I said in my previous post, we have been forgiven freely, therefore we must freely forgive.
Mercy and forgiveness is the perfection of God which we are to emulate as Jesus taught in Matt 7. It is better to err on the side of forgiveness than on the side of condemnation.

M: Yes, I agree the death of Jesus was necessary to redeem penitent sinners. However, why don't you think the "other way" you mentioned would have rendered humans and angels eternally secure?

T: Only the cross was able to make clear to man the issues that needed to be resolved.

M: Why would it have rendered them eternally secure had A&E succeeded but not if they had failed?

T: I'm not saying it wouldn't have rendered them eternally secure had A&E failed, but that I think God could have answered their questions in some other way.

M: Also, why did Jesus wait 4,000 years to die on the cross?

T: I think Christ would have come sooner had Israel been cooperative.

M: Did it disadvantage those who lived and died before the incarnation and death of Jesus?

T: Certainly the more one knows of Jesus Christ, the better, as the more light one has, the better off one is. So we're much better of, especially with the SOP, and others who in these last days God has used to bring light, than those who lived in the Middle ages, for example. Similarly Jews had an advantage over Eskimos, for example. But Jesus Christ is the light who lightens everyone who comes into the world, and the grace of God is sufficient to save just about anyone, regardless of their circumstances. I was just about to say anyone, but remember the case of slaves, who won't be resurrected.

T: I'm not saying it wouldn't have rendered them eternally secure had A&E failed, but that I think God could have answered their questions in some other way.

M:Do you think succeeding in Eden would have rendered humans eternally secure?

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell

And, do you think their success would have served to also render the rest of the universe eternally secure?

If not, do you think "some other way" besides the cross would have served to render them secure?

If so, do you think that that "some other way" besides the cross would have served to also render humans eternally secure if A&E had failed in Eden?

If not, why not?

And, why do you think the cross was the only way that could have served to render penitent people eternally secure?

M: Also, why did Jesus wait 4,000 years to die on the cross?

T: I think Christ would have come sooner had Israel been cooperative.

M:Doesn't seem fair to withhold the very thing they needed to empower them to cooperate.

M: Did it disadvantage those who lived and died before the incarnation and death of Jesus?

T: Certainly the more one knows of Jesus Christ, the better, as the more light one has, the better off one is. So we're much better of, especially with the SOP, and others who in these last days God has used to bring light, than those who lived in the Middle ages, for example. Similarly Jews had an advantage over Eskimos, for example. But Jesus Christ is the light who lightens everyone who comes into the world, and the grace of God is sufficient to save just about anyone, regardless of their circumstances. I was just about to say anyone, but remember the case of slaves, who won't be resurrected.

M:Yeah, the whole unsavable slave thing is hard to swallow. Doesn't seem fair.

Seems to me the cross was necessary after A&E failed for reasons that involve law and justice.

Pardoning the penitent is not enough. The wages of sin is death, and this aspect of law and justice cannot be dismissed or disregarded. Ellen wrote:

Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications, for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a substitute of superior value to the law of God. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate his Father's law. {RH, March 3, 1874 par. 1}

T: I'm not saying it wouldn't have rendered them eternally secure had A&E failed, but that I think God could have answered their questions in some other way.

M: Do you think succeeding in Eden would have rendered humans eternally secure?

T: I think EGW's point was that there was security only in obedience. An important point to keep in mind is the context in which an author writes. You often seem not to bear this in mind, or care, but simply look at the words written, and then consider those apart from the context. Not just you either. Many, many people do this. But by this technique, one can "prove" just about anything. Thomas' signature comes to mind: “It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell. In regards to your question, I believe that if Adam and Eve had been obedient, they would have been secure, for as long as they were obedient, the same as for any other creature.

They were to enjoy communion with God and with holy angels; but before they could be rendered eternally secure, their loyalty must be tested. . . They were also to be exposed to the temptations of Satan; but if they endured the trial, they would finally be placed beyond his power, to enjoy perpetual favor with God. {CC 13.2}

But God chose, in His all-wise arrangements, to test their loyalty before they could be rendered eternally secure. . . Satan was permitted to tempt them. If they endured the trial they were to be in perpetual favor with God and the heavenly angels.. {LHU 20.3}

M: And, do you think their success would have served to also render the rest of the universe eternally secure?

T: How would it have done this?

M: If not, do you think "some other way" besides the cross would have served to render them secure?

T: If by "render them secure" you have in mind answer the questions of the Great Controversy, as I've said repeatedly, I think God would have devised some other means than the cross to do so (although the principle of the cross would have had to have been involved).

M: If so, do you think that that "some other way" besides the cross would have served to also render humans eternally secure if A&E had failed in Eden?

T: If you're talking about the issues of the Great Controversy here, yes.

M: And, why do you think the cross was the only way that could have served to render penitent people eternally secure?

T: For the reasons that DA 762 brings out (Man was deceived, etc.). Also the first chapter of "The Desire of Ages" which discusses how Satan gained the homage of man, and how this was to be broken. And ST 1/20/90, which speaks of the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission, to set and keep people right with God by means of revealing the Father.

M: Also, why did Jesus wait 4,000 years to die on the cross?

T: I think Christ would have come sooner had Israel been cooperative.

M: Doesn't seem fair to withhold the very thing they needed to empower them to cooperate.

T: You mean have Christ come and die right at the beginning, right after Adam and Eve sinned? This would make an interesting discussion for a topic. It's well worth thinking about.

M: Did it disadvantage those who lived and died before the incarnation and death of Jesus?

T: Certainly the more one knows of Jesus Christ, the better, as the more light one has, the better off one is. So we're much better of, especially with the SOP, and others who in these last days God has used to bring light, than those who lived in the Middle ages, for example. Similarly Jews had an advantage over Eskimos, for example. But Jesus Christ is the light who lightens everyone who comes into the world, and the grace of God is sufficient to save just about anyone, regardless of their circumstances. I was just about to say anyone, but remember the case of slaves, who won't be resurrected.

M: Yeah, the whole unsavable slave thing is hard to swallow. Doesn't seem fair.

T: It's not fair. A world with sin makes for unfair things happening.

M: Seems to me the cross was necessary after A&E failed for reasons that involve law and justice.

T: Certainly, but not (primarily) how law and justice is commonly thought of by Westerners.

M: Pardoning the penitent is not enough. The wages of sin is death, and this aspect of law and justice cannot be dismissed or disregarded. Ellen wrote:

"Fallen man, because of his guilt, could no longer come directly before God with his supplications, for his transgression of the divine law had placed an impassable barrier between the holy God and the transgressor. But a plan was devised that the sentence of death should rest upon a substitute of superior value to the law of God. In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Ye shall surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate his Father's law. {RH, March 3, 1874 par. 1}

T: [The following quote is an excerpt from "God is Love" by George Fifield. I think it is a beautiful explanation of how the cross deals with the issues of law and justice.]

If the governor of a State should indiscriminately pardon all offenses against the law, it would absolutely abolish all restraint of law. The motive in his mind might be love, but the love would be so unwisely and imprudently manifested that it would lead to anarchy and misery. The same is true of the Governor of the universe. His love and his wisdom are one. His pardoning power must be so exercised in “wisdom and prudence” as to lead men to unity and joy, and not to anarchy and misery, else it is not love....R

Sin is secession from the government of God. Satan seceded, and sought to exalt his throne above that of God. Sinners are those who have joined themselves to Satan’s forces in the secession.

God, in infinite love, sens his own and only Son to put down the rebellion. He cannot pardon those who are still in rebellion, for this would but justify the rebellion and dishonor the law, and so perpetuate and multiply the misery. But through Jesus this rebellion is finally to be put down entirely.

“The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent’s head.” O’er every hilltop of earth and heaven, where for a short time there has waved the black standard of the man of sin, there shall forever float the white pennon of the Prince of Peace.

Every one who lays down his arms and surrenders his opposing will to God has the promise of pardon. This pardon God can grant, and not dishonor his law. Yea, more, it is through this pardon that the mercy and love of God’s law and government are revealed, -- a love that only commanded the right way, not to be arbitrary and domineering, but that men might be happy, -- a love what when men repent of the wrong, and turn back their hearts toward the broken law, is ever willing to forgive the past and give power for future obedience. It is thus that God can be just, and still the justifier of those who believe on Jesus. It is thus that faith in Jesus exalts the law of God to the highest heavens, and established it forever.

The cross of Calvary, to the whole universe of intelligent beings, is the greatest demonstration that ever has been or ever can be given that God’s law is eternal and universal, and yet that his love is infinity; reaching down with tender, fatherly longing to life up the lowest transgressor. In fact, his love is his law, and the law is unchangeable because his love is from everlasting to everlasting. When men behold this, they are led to repent of past transgressions, and to pray for power for future obedience. It is thus that Christ is exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. It is thus that the atonement is made, and rebellious men are led back into unity with God and with one another.

The life and death of Jesus – there it stands and will stand throughout eternal ages, an unanswerable argument to all intelligent beings of God’s unspeakable love, that first found expression in the law, and then, when men had violated that law, was more fully revealed though Christ; a divine, unanswerable argument to prove that –

1.If men suffer, it may not be because they are personally guilty, but because of the sins of others. Jesus also suffered, the just for the unjust.

2.It is not because God is angry with us, or hates us, that we suffer; for he loved Jesus, his only begotten Son, yet Jesus suffered more that we all.

3.All the misery of the world is the result of the world’s violation of God’s law of love, the keeping of which is the only possible way intelligent beings can be happy. Misery is, therefore, not only not an evidence of the Father’s forgetfulness or hatred, but a direct, unanswerable proof of that fatherly, solicitous love which in the law said, “Thou shalt not, my son, thou shalt not.”

4.The only way out of this pit of darkness into which we have fallen is to repent of sin and yield our hearts to keep the divine law. We can then be forgiven without God’s ignoring this law, and then God can give us power, as he did Jesus, to condemn sin in the flesh, and he, by his Spirit, can fulfill the righteousness of the law in us.

5.When this is done, we must not look for freedom from sorrow in this world, for we, with him, shall bear the sins and sorrows of others; but we may look for the rest that remaineth for the people of God, -- for the great eternity where all the wrongs of earth shall be righted, and where what is dark here shall be light in heaven. With Job, we say, “I know that my Redeemer liveth,” and with David, “I shall be satisfied when I awake with thy likeness.” With all the innumerable company we shall reckon ourselves pilgrims and strangers here, looking for the city that hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

6.Instead of sorrow’s being an evidence of God’s wrath, he, in his infinite wisdom and love, is using it as a means of discipline and development that shall better fit us for the joys of heaven. In fact, we have his promise that all things shall work together for our good if we love him. Even Jesus was made perfect through suffering before he could be Captain of our salvation, and shall we complain if we are required to follow our Leader to perfection and joy, over the same way he walked?

7.The whole life and death of Christ are an evidence, a demonstration, of the possibility that human weakness may so grasp the divine power by faith as to live in this world a righteous life and die a triumphant death.

All these lessons a lost world must learn before it can be redeemed. Jesus taught them all, and he is the Redeemer. In his life and death the whole problem of pain is considered and every question answered, and answered in in harmony with a God that is love.

God, being the creditor, had a right to make any provision for the redemption of human beings. Justice demanded that a certain price be paid. The Son of God was the only One who could pay this price. {7ABC 468.7}

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Justice demanded not merely that sin be pardoned; the death penalty must be met. The Saviour has met this demand. His broken body, his gushing blood, satisfied the claims of the law. Thus he bridged the gulf made by sin between earth and heaven. He suffered in the flesh, that with his robe of righteousness he might cover the defenseless sinner. {YI, April 16, 1903 par. 6}

God is approached through Jesus Christ, the Mediator, the only way through which He forgives sins. God cannot forgive sins at the expense of His justice, His holiness, and His truth. But He does forgive sins and that fully. There are no sins He will not forgive in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the sinner's only hope, and if he rests here in sincere faith, he is sure of pardon and that full and free. There is only one channel and that is accessible to all, and through that channel a rich and abundant forgiveness awaits the penitent, contrite soul and the darkest sins are forgiven. These lessons were taught to the chosen people of God thousands of years ago, and repeated in various symbols and figures, that the work of truth might be riveted in every heart, that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. . . . Justice demanded the sufferings of man; but Christ rendered the sufferings of a God. He needed no atonement of suffering for Himself; all His sufferings were for us; all His merits and holiness were open to fallen man, presented as a gift. {FLB 102.4}