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Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: asygo] #129339
12/04/10 03:15 PM
12/04/10 03:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold, no problem, but hopefully you can eventually come up with quotes to support the idea that we are conceived with a sinful character and are therefore guilty and condemned in the sight of God.

To answer your questions, yes, God expects us to turn to Him and to trust Him to empower us to experience rebirth and to recognize and to resist the sinful traits and tendencies we inherited at conception. And, yes, God also expects us to partake of the divine nature and to nurture and cultivate sinless traits and tendencies. Finally, no, we are very much unlike prefall Adam when we are conceived.

I believe at conception we inherit sinful traits and tendencies as opposed to saying we inherit a character. The many quotes I posted above make it clear character is the result of individual hard work and repetitious choices. "Character is not inherited."

We receive as a birth right hereditary defects, weaknesses, and predispositions in the form of sinful traits and tendencies, and because of these we naturally, instinctively begin cultivating a sinful character from the earliest dawn of consciousness, however, it is not true that we inherit a character.

Do you agree?

The difference between inherited sinful traits and tendencies and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies is a character. That is, a character is the result of us cultivating our inherited sinful traits and tendencies.

Do you agree?

In final judgment, it is the character we ourselves cultivated that will determine our eternal destiny.

Do you agree?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: asygo] #129340
12/04/10 03:17 PM
12/04/10 03:17 PM
asygo  Offline
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Here's one that MM already posted:

The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. {Mar 237}


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129341
12/04/10 03:20 PM
12/04/10 03:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - I see you posted some quotes while I was working on the post above. Did you happen to notice she specifies traits and tendencies as opposed to a character?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129342
12/04/10 03:22 PM
12/04/10 03:22 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, no problem, but hopefully you can eventually come up with quotes to support the idea that we are conceived with a sinful character and are therefore guilty and condemned in the sight of God.

I already posted a quote showing that we receive guilt from Adam, along with the sentence of death. Bad stuff.

Quote:
Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

So, if we are conceived with a depraved human nature, we are justly condemned.

Do you believe we are conceived with a depraved nature?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129343
12/04/10 04:14 PM
12/04/10 04:14 PM
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Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say we will be judged for the sin and guilt of eating the forbidden fruit in Eden. Adam and Eve will be judged for the sins they themselves committed. Each person is guilty of their own sins. No one is guilty of the sins of another. Guilt is not inherited. Sin is not inherited. Where there is no sin there is no guilt. Guilt is incurred by sinning.

Ezekiel
18:20: The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel
14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
14:16 [Though] these three men [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
14:17 Or [if] I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
14:18 Though these three men [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
14:19 Or [if] I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

And, of course, Ellen agrees. She wrote:

But character is not transferable. No man can believe for another. No man can receive the Spirit for another. No man can impart to another the character which is the fruit of the Spirit's working. "Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it [the land], as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." Ezekiel 14:20. {COL 411.2}

Quote:
Parents have a more serious charge than they imagine. The inheritance of children is that of sin. Sin has separated them from God. Jesus gave His life that He might unite the broken links to God. As related to the first Adam, men receive from him nothing but guilt and the sentence of death. But Christ steps in and passes over the ground where Adam fell, enduring every test in man's behalf. . . . Christ's perfect example and the grace of God are given him to enable him to train his sons and daughters to be sons and daughters of God. It is by teaching them, line upon line, precept upon precept, how to give the heart and will up to Christ that Satan's power is broken. {CG 475.3}

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression. Jesus regained heaven for man by bearing the test that Adam failed to endure; for He obeyed the law perfectly, and all who have a right conception of the plan of redemption will see that they cannot be saved while in transgression of God's holy precepts. They must cease to transgress the law and lay hold on the promises of God that are available for us through the merits of Christ. {FW 88.3}

Hating sin with a perfect hatred, He yet gathered to His soul the sins of the whole world. Guiltless, He bore the punishment of the guilty. Innocent, yet offering Himself as a substitute for the transgressor. The guilt of every sin pressed its weight upon the divine soul of the world's Redeemer. The evil thoughts, the evil words, the evil deeds of every son and daughter of Adam, called for retribution upon Himself; for He had become man's substitute. Though the guilt of sin was not His, His spirit was torn and bruised by the transgressions of men, and He who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. {AG 172.3}

In the act of dying, Christ was destroying him who had the power of death. He carried out the plan, finished the work which from Adam's fall He had covenanted to undertake. By dying for the guilt of a sinful world, He reinstated fallen man, on condition of obedience to God's commandments, in the position from which he had fallen in consequence of disobedience. And when He broke the fetters of the tomb and rose triumphant from the dead He answered the question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14). Christ made it possible that every child of Adam might, through a life of obedience, overcome sin and rise also from the grave to his heritage of immortality purchased by the blood of Christ. {HP 44.3}

We should not try to lessen our guilt by excusing sin. We must accept God’s estimate of sin, and that is heavy indeed. Calvary alone can reveal the terrible enormity of sin. If we had to bear our own guilt, it would crush us. But the sinless One has taken our place; though undeserving, He has borne our iniquity. “If we confess our sins,” God “is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1 John 1:9. Glorious truth!—just to His own law, and yet the Justifier of all that believe in Jesus. “Who is a God like unto Thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He retaineth not His anger forever, because He delighteth in mercy.” Micah 7:18. {Pr 299.1}

God places every action in the scale. What a scene it will be! What impressions will be made regarding the holy character of God and the terrible enormity of sin, when the judgment, based on the law, is carried forward in the presence of all the worlds. Then before the mind of the unrepentant sinner there will be opened all the sins that he has committed, and he will see and understand the aggregate of sin and his own guilt. {7BC 953.2}

As the Holy One upon the throne slowly turned the leaves of the ledger, and His eyes rested for a moment upon individuals, His glance seemed to burn into their very souls, and at the same moment every word and action of their lives passed before their minds as clearly as though traced before their vision in letters of fire. Trembling seized them, and their faces turned pale. Their first appearance when around the throne was that of careless indifference. But how changed their appearance now! The feeling of security is gone, and in its place is a nameless terror. A dread is upon every soul, lest he shall be found among those who are wanting. Every eye is riveted upon the face of the One upon the throne; and as His solemn, searching eye sweeps over that company, there is a quaking of heart; for they are self-condemned without one word being uttered. In anguish of soul each declares his own guilt and with terrible vividness sees that by sinning he has thrown away the precious boon of eternal life. {4T 385.2}

If for some crime that you had committed you were incarcerated within prison walls, with the sentence of death passed upon you, and a friend should come to you and say, "I will take your place, and you may go free," would not your heart be filled with gratitude for such unselfish love? Christ has done infinitely more than this for us. We were lost; the sentence of death had been passed upon us; and Christ died for us, and thus set us free. He said, "I will take upon Myself the guilt of the sinner, that he may have another trial. I will put within his reach power that will enable him to overcome in the struggle with evil." {HP 42.2}

The Holy Spirit is not only to sanctify but to convict. No one can repent of his sins until he is convicted of his guilt. How necessary, then, it is that we should have the Holy Spirit with us we labor to reach fallen souls. Our human abilities will be exercised in vain unless they are united with this heavenly agency. {RH, July 16, 1895 par. 1}

We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by his perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression. Jesus regained heaven for man by bearing the test that Adam failed to endure; for he obeyed the law perfectly, and all who have a right conception of the plan of redemption will see that they cannot be saved while in transgression of God's holy precepts. They must cease to transgress the law, and lay hold on the promises of God that are available for us through the merits of Christ. {ST, May 19, 1890 par. 8}

Nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say we will be judged for the sin and guilt of eating the forbidden fruit in Eden. Adam and Eve will be judged for the sins they themselves committed. Each person is guilty of their own sins. No one is guilty of the sins of another. Guilt is not inherited. Sin is not inherited. Where there is no sin there is no guilt. Guilt is incurred by sinning.

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: asygo] #129345
12/04/10 04:29 PM
12/04/10 04:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold, no problem, but hopefully you can eventually come up with quotes to support the idea that we are conceived with a sinful character and are therefore guilty and condemned in the sight of God.

I already posted a quote showing that we receive guilt from Adam, along with the sentence of death. Bad stuff.

Quote:
Human nature is depraved, and is justly condemned by a holy God. {RH, September 17, 1895 par. 7}

So, if we are conceived with a depraved human nature, we are justly condemned.

Do you believe we are conceived with a depraved nature?

Again, I was working on my last post while you were posting your last post. Yes, we inherit a depraved nature. No doubt about it. And, yes, God condemns our depraved nature. However, that is not the same thing as God condemning us. God condemns the results of sinning, of which depraved human nature is one of the worst results of sinning.

Quote:
The Protestant churches, having received doctrines that the Word of God condemns, will bring these to the front and force them upon the consciences of the people, just as the papal authorities urged their dogmas upon the advocates of truth in Luther’s time. The same battle is again to be fought, and every soul will be called upon to decide upon which side of the controversy he or she will be found. {CTr 323.5}

While God condemns a mere round of ceremonies, without the spirit of worship, He looks with great pleasure upon those who love Him, bowing morning and evening to seek pardon for sins committed, and to present their requests for needed blessings. {FLB 196.5}

Do not excuse your defects of character, but in the grace of Christ overcome them. Wrestle with the evil passions which the Word of God condemns; for in yielding to them, you abase yourself. Repent of sin while Mercy's sweet voice invites you; for it is the first step in the noblest work you can do. Strive for the mastery with all the powers God hath given you. {ML 104.5}

Truth is efficient only as it is carried out in practical life. If the Word of God condemns some habit you have indulged, a feeling you have cherished, a spirit you have manifested, turn not from the Word of God, but turn away from the evil of your doings, and let Jesus cleanse and sanctify your heart. Confess your faults, and forsake them. {OHC 37.4}

God doesn't condemn us because we inherited a depraved nature. No way! Instead, He condemns every thought, word, or deed that violates His law. And, of course, He condemns the results of sinning, as stated above.

Last edited by Mountain Man; 12/04/10 04:32 PM.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: asygo] #129346
12/04/10 04:30 PM
12/04/10 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Here's one that MM already posted:

The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. {Mar 237}

I believe at conception we inherit sinful traits and tendencies as opposed to saying we inherit a character. The many quotes I posted above make it clear character is the result of individual hard work and repetitious choices. "Character is not inherited." "Character is not transferable."

We receive as a birth right hereditary defects, weaknesses, and predispositions in the form of sinful traits and tendencies, and because of these we naturally, instinctively begin cultivating a sinful character from the earliest dawn of consciousness, however, it is not true that we inherit a character.

Do you agree?

The difference between inherited sinful traits and tendencies and cultivated sinful traits and tendencies is a character. That is, a character is the result of us cultivating our inherited sinful traits and tendencies.

Do you agree?

In final judgment, it is the character we ourselves cultivated that will determine our eternal destiny.

Do you agree?

Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129351
12/04/10 09:50 PM
12/04/10 09:50 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Guilt is not inherited.

I say that we receive from Adam guilt and the sentence of death. You disagree with that. Right?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Sin is not inherited. Where there is no sin there is no guilt.

So you believe a newborn has neither sin nor guilt. Right?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129354
12/04/10 11:42 PM
12/04/10 11:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,636
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Finally, no, we are very much unlike prefall Adam when we are conceived.

When Adam was created, he was made in God's image. I'm pretty sure we all agree that it was an image of love.

When Adam sinned, selfishness took the place of love. So instead of having love as the ruling principle, Adam was ruled by self.

Are you saying that we are born ruled by self?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Is there a relation between Christ's assumed human nature and rightesousness by faith? [Re: Mountain Man] #129355
12/05/10 12:15 AM
12/05/10 12:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
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Quote:
I believe at conception we inherit sinful traits and tendencies as opposed to saying we inherit a character. The many quotes I posted above make it clear character is the result of individual hard work and repetitious choices. "Character is not inherited." "Character is not transferable."

Character is the sum total of your character traits.

"There is every phase of character received by children as an inheritance. The defects and the virtues in traits of character are thus revealed. Let every instructor take this into consideration. Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character, as also beauty of character, will have to be met, and much grace cultivated in the instructor to know how to deal with the erring for their present and eternal good." {FE 277.1}

"God expects every one who claims to be his child to reveal to the world not their natural, hereditary, sinful character, but a representation of the character of Christ." {HM, December 1, 1894 par. 4}

What do you make of the quotes which say that Adam was created with a character?

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