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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129502
12/09/10 08:58 PM
12/09/10 08:58 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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It’s funny you accuse me of taking things out of context while others condemn me for quoting too much of the context. Oh well, you win some, you lose some. Such is life.
Mike, your usual problem is not that you quote too much context but that you do not comment why you chose to quote either text or its context. (Also, quoting extensively from a quote collection does not constitute context..)
Galatians 2 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129521
12/10/10 04:05 PM
12/10/10 04:05 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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It’s funny you accuse me of taking things out of context while others condemn me for quoting too much of the context. Oh well, you win some, you lose some. Such is life.
Mike, your usual problem is not that you quote too much context but that you do not comment why you chose to quote either text or its context. (Also, quoting extensively from a quote collection does not constitute context..) Thank you for pointing out my problem. I didn't realize I post quotes without sufficient context to accurately represent the point. I would appreciate it if you would point it out when what I post doesn't support my point. It is not my intent to misrepresent the truth or to falsify it. Also, I will try to make it more clear why I think the quotes I post support my point.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129594
12/13/10 08:43 PM
12/13/10 08:43 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding #129486, in the first part, I misread what you wrote as applying to angels instead of humans. That is, you wrote: M: Do you think succeeding in Eden would have rendered humans eternally secure? I misread this as asking about angels, which you did ask elsewhere, but not here. So probably my comments didn't make much sense, so I apologize for that. M: And, why do you think the cross was the only way that could have served to render penitent people eternally secure?
T: For the reasons that DA 762 brings out (Man was deceived, etc.). Also the first chapter of "The Desire of Ages" which discusses how Satan gained the homage of man, and how this was to be broken. And ST 1/20/90, which speaks of the "whole purpose" of Christ's mission, to set and keep people right with God by means of revealing the Father.
M:Are you here referring to reasons not related to the great controversy issues you mentioned above? Any of these things involves the Great Controversy. If so, are you saying the “some other way” would not have served to render the universe eternally secure as it relates to things “not related to the great controversy issues”? This is a confusing question. What I'm saying is that when man fell, God both saved man and solved the problems Satan had raised by means of the cross. Had man not fallen, I believe God would have solved the problems Satan had raised in some other way. T: You mean have Christ come and die right at the beginning, right after Adam and Eve sinned? This would make an interesting discussion for a topic. It's well worth thinking about.
M:Yes, especially if it would have served to help them to do what they didn’t do, namely, cooperate. The question speaks to what was accomplished by the death of Jesus. Apparently the actual death of Jesus was no more efficacious than His promise to come and die. Otherwise, it would have been unfair. The truth is, though, God is fair. Not sure what you mean by "efficacious." That is, efficacious in terms of accomplishing what? It's certainly advantageous to have been born after Jesus Christ came than before, as we have more light than those who lived before had. One can say the same thing in relation to being born after the 19th century, to have access to the SOP and other light that God has sent. I also gave the example of slaves, who won't even be resurrected, so bad was their situation. So not everyone is born into equally fair situations. But this doesn't mean God isn't fair. It means that sin creates situations where people experience injustice. M: Yeah, the whole unsavable slave thing is hard to swallow. Doesn't seem fair.
T: It's not fair. A world with sin makes for unfair things happening.
M:You’re right, some things aren’t fair. However, I think God is fair. And not resurrecting certain slaves is right and fair. Everything God does is right and fair. I just don’t understand the why or how of it. I accept it by faith. It's not fair that some people were born as slaves, while others not.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129595
12/13/10 08:54 PM
12/13/10 08:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M:George wrote, "Sin is secession from the government of God." Whereas, Ellen wrote, "The only definition of sin in the Word of God is given us in 1 John 3:4. "Sin is the transgression of the law." Sin led to secession. Ellen White often wrote "sin is ..." without following this with "transgression of the law." Your reasoning here would have her contradicting herself every time she did this. That sin is secession from the government of God would only be a contradiction if it were the case that transgression of the law were not secession from the government of God. That is, that the definition of "sin" is "transgression of the law" means that wherever "sin" is used, one could substitute "sin" with "transgression of the law." When Fifield wrote of sin being secession from the government of God, he was speaking of a characteristic of sin; he wasn't giving this as a definition of sin. That Fifield understood sin as being transgression of the law is apparent in what he wrote. George wrote, "The only way out of this pit of darkness into which we have fallen is to repent of sin and yield our hearts to keep the divine law." Whereas, Ellen wrote, "Through disobedience Adam fell. The law of God had been broken. The divine government had been dishonored, and justice demanded that the penalty of transgression be paid. These are talking about two different things. These "whereas's" you are making are entirely out of place. To save the race from eternal death, the Son of God volunteered to bear the punishment of disobedience. Only by the humiliation of the Prince of heaven could the dishonor be removed, justice be satisfied, and man be restored to that which he had forfeited by disobedience. There was no other way. This is just what Fifield wrote! Didn't you get this? This is what the paragraphs I quoted stated. Same comment on your next paragraph. George seems to divorce the penalty of transgression from the death of Jesus. Why do you think this? Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to give God the legal right to pardon and to save the penitent, "in order that man might have another probation." "Death must come in consequence of man's sin." Jesus paid our sin debt of death on the cross and thereby satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice. Therefore, God can justifiably pardon and save the penitent. "Death entered the world because of transgression. But Christ gave His life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. He did not die to make sin an immortal attribute; He died to secure the right to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil. {FLB 179.5} Fifield was explaining how the death of Christ honors the law of God, and why it was necessary. Central to understanding Fifield is the concept that death, misery, suffering, etc. are natural consequences to sin, because of their being an organic relationship involved. Death is to sin what the oak is to the acorn. James brings this out in explaining that sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Tom]
#132803
04/20/11 09:53 AM
04/20/11 09:53 AM
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This is the time of year when we reflect more often upon the death of Christ and why He died on the Tree of Calvary for us that secured Eternal Life for the "whosoever will" of John 3:16.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Daryl]
#132810
04/20/11 03:08 PM
04/20/11 03:08 PM
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SDA Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,509
Midland
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While remembering Christ's death and more importantly, His resurrection, how should one approach Easter, (Ēostre and Ôstarâ are the names of a putative Germanic goddess - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre), when it isn't even on the same day as passover? In some Adventist churches, they even have what can be viewed as a processional. And don't forget the rabbits: Boyle writes that "her carriage, we are told by Snorri, was drawn by a pair of cats — animals, it is true, which like hares were the familiars of witches, with whom Freyja seems to have much in common."
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: kland]
#132823
04/20/11 09:19 PM
04/20/11 09:19 PM
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We should approach Easter the same that we should do with Christmas with our focus and opportunity on presenting Christ to those around us in our respective communities.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Daryl]
#132837
04/21/11 05:00 PM
04/21/11 05:00 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I agree, Daryl. Most people don't care at all or know anything about the pagan backgrounds to the holidays we observe, but they may be more willing then normal to enter into religious conversations.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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