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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129298
12/02/10 03:38 PM
12/02/10 03:38 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Fornicators and idolaters are not defined by church membership, on any level.
The brotherhood of all believers was a main accomplishment secured by Christs Death on the cross.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129324
12/03/10 05:16 PM
12/03/10 05:16 PM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Church membership is made conditional upon understanding and implementing "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded us and then getting baptized. Church discipline is administered in cases where church members refuse to live in harmony with "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded us. Jesus also commanded us, through Paul, not to hang out with church members, as if all is well, who are willfully violating one or more of the commands of Jesus.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129327
12/03/10 07:54 PM
12/03/10 07:54 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
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Mike, if that was true and implemented, there would be no SDA church. Probably no other denomination either.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129337
12/04/10 02:50 PM
12/04/10 02:50 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Why do you think so? Are Jesus' commands flawed?
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129344
12/04/10 04:25 PM
12/04/10 04:25 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
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For instance, implement church discipline using the John 17 criteria. Out goes all SDA who have RC or Protestant phobia.
Or implement Matt 25. Out goes all SDA who think visiting the sick or caring for the imprisoned is "the error of social gospel".
Or implement the sermon on the mount. Out goes all SDA who think it is enough to stay home from work on the sabbat, come to church for 2 hours and be written in the SDA membership lists. Or out goes all SDA who occasionally insult others, who keep grudges to others, who covet that which they have not, plot revenge against those who harm them and fail to go out of their way to serve the bullies in their lives. Or out goes those who make sure others know about the charity they give, or who make sure others know about their piety or who for any reason judge their brother or sister or even the stranger in the street.
Think through all churches you are familiar with, all christians you are familiar with. How many persons do you know or know about who would be admitted into the church and allowed to remain church members if the rules you lay down in post 129324 were strictly abided by.
Would you stay in church with a good conscience?
Jesus commands are not flawed. All church members are flawed.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129367
12/05/10 03:24 PM
12/05/10 03:24 PM
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OP
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Thomas, I believe Jesus is talking about "open sins" as opposed to "secret sins". For example, unmarried couples living and sleeping together, working on the Sabbath unnecessarily, smoking, drinking, etc. Open, blatant sins should be dealt with in accordance with the commands of Jesus, even if it means flawed people must enforce unflawed commands.
Do you agree?
I agree with you that the sins you named above are no less sinful and deserving of punishment, however, unless Jesus specifically exposes them, such sins are difficult to punish without judging secret motives.
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129377
12/05/10 05:44 PM
12/05/10 05:44 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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RC or Protestant phobia is often an "open sin", since those who have it seldom seem to pass an opportunity to flaunt their views.
Also, many of those SDA who think caring for those in need is heretical are also happy to share their conviction openly, thus an "open sin".
The sermon on the mount points fall squarely within the "secret sin" category I assume. Still, the two first categories ought already have decreased the average church membership 10-15%.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129396
12/06/10 03:02 PM
12/06/10 03:02 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Are you hinting at the idea that there is no sin church members can commit which requires discipline in accordance with the counsel and commands of Jesus? Does Jesus expect the church to wait and let the "shaking" sift out the ungodly, time serving members? Ellen wrote: I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.--1T 181 (1857). {LDE 175.3}
There are those among us who will make confessions, as did Achan, too late to save themselves. . . They are not in harmony with right. They despise the straight testimony that reaches the heart, and would rejoice to see everyone silenced who gives reproof.--3T 272 (1873). {LDE 175.4}
The Lord calls for a renewal of the straight testimony borne in years past. He calls for a renewal of spiritual life. The spiritual energies of His people have long been torpid, but there is to be a resurrection from apparent death. By prayer and confession of sin we must clear the King's highway.--8T 297 (1904). {LDE 176.1}
The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.--4T 89 (1876). {LDE 180.1}
Chaff like a cloud will be borne away on the wind, even from places where we see only floors of rich wheat.--5T 81 (1882). {LDE 180.2}
Soon God's people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal. . . . {LDE 180.3}
When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few--this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.--5T 136 (1882). {LDE 180.4}
The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.--2SM 380 (1886). {LDE 180.5}
As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel's message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.--GC 608 (1911). {LDE 180.6}
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: Mountain Man]
#129408
12/06/10 05:33 PM
12/06/10 05:33 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Well, we do have:
Matthew 7:1-2
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Anyone who would sit in judgment over another in the church places him or herself in a precarious situation. Unless his or her motives in the action are pure, there is a reckoning to count in. Is your eye clear, are you sure that you are not biased by any logs reducing your clear-sightedness? Then by all means, go ahead.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: What Was Secured by the Death of Christ.
[Re: vastergotland]
#129409
12/06/10 05:36 PM
12/06/10 05:36 PM
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Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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In short, if you are in risk of erring, it would be safest to err on the side of mercy.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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