There is under your view, because you don't see that there's an organic relationship. That's what "arbitrary" means. It could have been something else, under your view, if God had so chosen. Again, this is the meaning of "arbitrary."

(btw, when you said there's nothing "natural" about it, is this what you meant? Or did you mean "unnatural"?)



God could not have created us in to experience peace in other ways, besides agape, because there is no other way. It wasn't a question of God's choosing that perfect peace would result from obedience, as opposed to selfishness, but this followed simply by the fact that God created beings capable of loving Him.

Things could not have been other than this.



No, this is false. I have no idea why you would think this.

By the way, you contradicted yourself. You said first that, "God did not create us to experience perfect peace in other ways (than obedience)," and immediately following that there are many people who experience perfect peace in disobedience. I'm not sure which you really believe. I agree with the first one, but not in an arbitrary sense, but because this follows from God's having created beings with free will capable of loving Him.





Then they are Christians too. If not by profession, by character.



The "anomaly" is that you think it's possible for people to reject Christ and simultaneously have the character of Christ.

Tom, it sounds like you're saying it is impossible for someone to consciously refuse to embrace Jesus and be kind and loving and compassionate.

MM, you wrote this:



This doesn't make sense to me, as you first say:

a.God did not create us to experience perfect peace in other ways.

and then

b.The truth is, however, there are plenty of people out there who experience perfect peace who have made informed, conscious decisions not to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior.

So which is it, a. or b.? Does one experience perfect peace only by "obey and live"? Or are there "plenty of people" who experience "perfect peace" who have made conscious decisions not to embrace Jesus as their personal Savior?

In response to your question, I think if a person is consciously resisting the Holy Spirit (which your question to me looks to be implying, as it says they're "consciously refusing to embrace Jesus") that this would impede their ability to be "kind and loving and compassionate." I think resisting the Holy Spirit would inevitably lead to a religion of putting self first. I don't see how this could be avoided.

You wrote:



So apparently you feel that being a Christian has no impact whatsoever on one being kind and loving and compassionate. I don't understand this idea. It is only by beholding Christ that one becomes Christ-like. Now one may behold Christ without recognizing that this is what one is doing (in the case of those who are uninformed regarding Christ) or even "reject" Christ because of the false misrepresentations of Him offered by Christians only so in name, but I don't see how one could actually reject the Holy Spirit and be as living, kind, and compassionate as those who embrace His work.

Tom, "a" is "obey and live, disobey and die". It is by divine design. Do you agree?

Why do you think people can be kind and loving and compassionate like Jesus even though they consciously reject Jesus as misrepresented by people who are Christian in name only? Do you know of anyone in this category?

PS - I believe "a" is true and "b" is impossible. That is, I don't think "b" can experience "perfect peace" as defined in the Bible. But how do you explain the fact there are people, like former believers, who once rejoiced in the Lord and but now consciously reject Him, and yet are still very kind and loving and compassionate? Are these attributes evidence they are experiencing "perfect peace" as defined in the Bible? If not, how do you prove it? Upon what evidence or "fruit" do you base it on?

Not in an arbitrary sense, but as an organic relationship, yes.



Because they're not really rejecting Christ; they're not resisting (necessarily) or rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit.



Yes.



Then why did you say this was "the truth"?



I don't know anyone like this.



Don't know what you're asking here.

Neither life nor death are organic. Life is entirely dependent upon God continuing to grant it. And death is entirely dependent upon God withdrawing life. When Jesus first formed Adam, he was lifeless, dead. Not until Jesus breathed into him the breath of the life did Adam become a living soul. It is very arbitrary.


Are you really going to make me ask you to name the person or people you have in mind? Seems disrespectful.


Because there are people who appear, in truth, to have as much peace as believers.


I'm surprised. I find them just about everywhere I go.


I'm not surprised. Having never met former believers who are kind and loving and compassionate, it makes perfect sense you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

James speaks of a process: sin, when it is finished, brings forth death. Death is to sin what the oak is to the acorn. We see what this process looks like at Calvary.



You mean disrespectful to you? You don't know the person.



Then you mean "not in truth." When you write things like "in truth," when what you really mean is "apparently," it makes it difficult to follow you.



So you think a person can knowingly resist the Holy Spirit, knowingly reject Christ, and be just as loving and kind and compassionate as "the best of Christians"? It doesn't appear that you believe that responding to the Holy Spirit and knowing Christ has an impact on one's character. I find this odd.



I don't think you're communicating clearly here.

We disagree.


That was unproductive.


The truth is, there are people who seem to be as peaceful as some believers seem to be. Since we cannot judge motive, since we can only go on outward signs, there are many unbelievers who seem just as peaceful as believers seem to be.


What seems odd to me is the fact you have never met an unbeliever who is just as kind and loving and compassionate as the best of believers.


I'm talking about the unbelievers you have never met, namely, the ones who are just as kind and loving and compassionate as the best of believers. My question is - Do these observable outward signs and fruit (the fact they are kind and loving and compassionate) prove they are experiencing the kind of peace defined in the Bible? If not, upon what bases do you prove they are not experiencing the kind of peace defined in the Bible? Or, is it impossible to prove or disprove it?

Is it possible to express the fruit of the Spirit except it comes from God? Irrespective of whether the person has a confessed belief in Jesus or not..

Regarding? I mentioned three things:

1.James speaks of a process: sin, which, when it is finished, brings forth death.
2.Death is to sin what the oak is to the acorn.
3.We see what this process looks like at Calvary.



You asked me if I knew someone in a given category. I do. But you don't. I don't know what else you would expect from me.



This is clearer.



You mean apparently so? (as opposed to actually)



I don't think such people exist, if you're talking about people actively resisting the Holy Spirit, which I inferred you meant from your comment that they are consciously rejecting, based on an informed decision, Jesus Christ.



1.I don't think such a group of people exists.
2.I would "prove" this on the basic of logic. Does it make sense to assert that a person resisting the Holy Spirit is actually experiencing perfect peace.
3.Also there's the verse which uses this expression to consider, which I assume is where you got the expression, which is that "Perfect peace have they whose mind is stayed upon Thee." If this is the case, it's difficult to see how it could also be the case that "Perfect peace have they whose mind is not stayed upon Thee," which looks to be what you were suggesting.