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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12985
04/08/05 05:11 AM
04/08/05 05:11 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Very nice, Claudia.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12986
04/08/05 05:25 AM
04/08/05 05:25 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Yes, we can, as we have in the past on MSDAOL, add to our list of sins of ignorance - dress reform. Of course, not knowing about biblical dress standards is not a defective trait of character, not any more than not knowing about biblical dietary standards. Thus, Sister White is in no way implying that a person can be born again with unknown or unconfessed or uncrucified defective traits of character related to dress reform. If a person is ignorant of dress reform it doesn't mean they have an unknown defective trait of character. It is a sin of ignorance, not a defective trait of character. To develop a defective trait of character a person must reject the influence of the Holy Spirit and repeatedly do something that violates their conscience and convictions.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12987
04/08/05 05:34 AM
04/08/05 05:34 AM
Davros  Offline
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Posts: 1,009
Ohio
Isn't it more human nature?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12988
04/08/05 02:28 PM
04/08/05 02:28 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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I don't think so, not when it comes to sins of ignorance. Diet, dress, sabbath, Jesus, etc, are learned. They are not naturally known from birth. But things like lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc, are things we know about naturally from birth. It is part of our nature. When we go against what we know is right and choose to do wrong, if we do it often enough, it becomes a defective trait of character. The development of character is not the result of accident. It's the result of the deliberate choices we make for weal or woe. We cannot accidentally, or ignorantly, develop defective traits of character. That's why it is character that determines our eternal destiny in judgment.

GC 486
Our acts, our words, even our most secret motives, all have their weight in deciding our destiny for weal or woe. {GC 486.3}

SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

5T 310
If the thoughts are wrong the feelings will be wrong, and the thoughts and feelings combined make up the moral character. {5T 310.1}

COL 74
It is character that decides destiny. {COL 74.4}

In contrast to character development, here's what the SOP says about sinful flesh nature:

AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12989
04/08/05 06:37 PM
04/08/05 06:37 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Diet, dress, sabbath, Jesus, etc, are learned. They are not naturally known from birth. But things like lying, stealing, cheating, murder, etc, are things we know about naturally from birth.
Why do you think things like lying are known from birth? Why do you not think this is learned? Lying includes a lot. Do you think there is no aspect of lying which is learned?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12990
04/08/05 07:35 PM
04/08/05 07:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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No one can lie without knowing it because a lie is something you know is not the truth. If you don't know it's not the truth then it's not a lie. Do you have an example in mind?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12991
04/09/05 04:35 AM
04/09/05 04:35 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Lies are not just saying something is true which you know not to be true. Much more is included than that.

For example, not representing something you know to be true, but remaining silent, may be lying. It may not be clear whether this is a lie or not, as it would depend on the context.

When Christ was being tried before His death He mostly remained silent. But when He was called upon to testify by an oath, I think by the high priest, He did not remain silent, but spoke.

In certain contexts by remaining silent you may convey an idea which is not true. Anyone who is married knows the art of doing this.

By mannerisms, by a tone of voice, by silence, and by many other ways one may bear false witness. These are things which are learned, both how to do them, and that they are sin.

Similar examples could be given for all the sins you mentioned. IMO you're taking much too narrow a view on things to make the types of distinctions your are. The law is exceedinly broad. We have much to learn.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12992
04/09/05 05:05 AM
04/09/05 05:05 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Southwest USA
I agree, if a person is being sly, furtive or silent on purpose, in order to give a false or fake impression, it is a type of lie. But if they are not trying to be devious or deceptive, then people are just misreading their body language. Sin is not so subtle that God cannot set us free now, today. It does not take years and years of sinning less and less to discover and overcome our defective traits of character.

SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12993
04/10/05 04:13 AM
04/10/05 04:13 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I think sin is more subtle than you think. There's more to sin than just what you ascribe to defects of character. Even if what you say is true, given your meaning of the terms you use, there is still much to be done in the formation of our characters after we first believe.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12994
04/10/05 04:50 AM
04/10/05 04:50 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
According to the SOP "one ray of the glory of God" makes every defect and deformity painfully obvious. Sin isn't so sneaky that it can evade the glory of God. And, yes, after we are born again, after we receive the mind of the new man, we have a ton of growing to do. But the growth we experience, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, is the same growth Jesus experienced as He grew from childhood to manhood. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth.

As newborn babes in Christ we are without fault or defect, the same as Jesus. But we are not born again morally mature. Character development is the work of a lifetime, including eternal life. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to become more and more like Jesus, more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit. No temptation is too difficult to resist because, as partakers of the divine nature, we are partakers of His holiness, we are more than conquerors in Christ.

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

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