Non-believers who consciously reject Jesus and resist the Holy Spirit do not necessarily also consciously choose Satan. Some do, of course, but I hazard to guess most do not. Many are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, New Age, etc, all of whom are very capable of performing generous actions in a kind, loving, and compassionate way.


When the unbelievers we’re talking about (with the "key part of . . . rejecting Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit") repeatedly act kind, loving, and compassionate are they cultivating related traits of character? Or, are they fostering and strengthening selfishness? For example, when they work side-by-side Christians, day after day, week after week, month after month, helping feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy, are they nurturing selfishness or virtuous traits of character?


In what way is your first sentence the reverse of my sentence? Regarding your second sentence, why do you think working side-by-side Christians helping the poor (like the example above) involves denying self?


I’m talking about the “outward correctness of behavior” they “produce”. I assume you agree with me being kind, loving, and compassionate qualify as “outward correctness of behavior.” All of which they “produce” without first experiencing rebirth, while consciously rejecting Jesus and resisting the Holy Spirit.

“It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1} You, on the other hand, seem to be saying that whenever a selfish, unrenewed heart produces a well-ordered life, avoids the appearance of evil, and performs generous actions they are acting in response to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit.

Also, which of your questions have I failed to answer?

Isn't there something similar in the Bible to, you are either with me or you are against me?

Of course not consciously. Very few non-believers even think Satan exists. I didn't say they consciously did so.



I don't doubt that, but I doubt your idea that they do so while consciously rejecting Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit. I've been asking you why you even think this is possible, and haven't seen a response. Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?



Again, why do you think this is possible? You keep asking what seem to me to be FOTAP type questions (fallacy of the assumed premise). I'm asking you to back up your premise.



Same question. Why do you think people consciously rejecting Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit can reflect the character of Christ and the fruit of the Holy Spirit?



See what follows after "I'm saying."



I added to this be clear what I'm hearing you say. When you say they are as loving and compassionate as "the best of Christians," I understand this (your idea) must involve the denying of self, because it certainly does for "the best of Christians."



But this isn't what you said. You said they were as loving and compassionate as the best of Christians. Being loving and compassionate involves more than "outward correctness of behavior," which you should realize (I assumed you realized this in my responses.)



It involves this, but is not limited to this.



I disagree. I still don't see why you think it's possible to consciously reject Christ and consciously reject the Holy Spirit yet reflect the character of Christ and manifest the fruit of the Spirit.



I'm actually saying the same thing she's saying, but disagreeing with what you're saying. I disagree with your assumed premise, that the selfish, unrenewed heart can produce the fruit of the Spirit. I've been saying this over and over.



The one I've been asking over and over again, about why you think that a person who consciously rejects Christ and consciously resists the Holy Spirit can be as kind and compassionate as the best of Christians.

I posted the following quote to establish my point:

“It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1}

I believe this addresses your question - "Why do you think that a person who consciously rejects Christ and consciously resists the Holy Spirit can be as kind and compassionate as the best of Christians?"

You seem to think anyone who is kind and loving and compassionate is responding to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit (as opposed to consciously resisting Him). Whereas I believe a selfish, unrenewed heart is capable of performing generous actions (kind, loving, and compassionate).

I hear you saying, no, it is a selfish, unrenewed heart responding to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit that is capable of being kind and loving and compassionate - otherwise it is incapable of such generous actions. Let's assume you're right; how does their fruit differ from the fruit of the best of believers?

For example, when working side-by-side helping to feed, clothe, and house the poor and needy, how does the generous actions of one differ from the generous actions of the other? Are both the pure and holy fruit of the Spirit? Or, is one stained with sin? (Note: I'm talking specifically about comparing the best of atheists and the best of believers. By best of atheists I'm talking about people who have seen Christ in the best light and have made a decision not to believe in Him.)

Above you said the best of atheists do not consciously choose to Satan, but that it happens by default when they consciously choose to reject Jesus. Which begs the question - Can people who are serving Satan simultaneously respond to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit and, as a result, perform generous actions, be kind and loving and compassionate like the best of believers? Can such people serve two opposing masters at the same time?

This establishes my point! This is saying the reverse of what you've been alleging. There's no idea here that a person can consciously reject Christ and consciously resist the Holy Spirit yet be as loving and compassionate as the best of Christians, unless you have a very shallow idea of what being "as loving and compassionate as the best of Christians" means.



No, it doesn't, unless you have a very shallow idea as to what being loving and compassionate means. I think this may be the case, from the looks of things.



Yes, we differ as to what being loving and compassionate means. You have what to me is a very shallow idea as to what this means, encompassing merely outward correctness. You believe being loving and compassionate is something a selfish heart can produce. I think being loving and compassionate involves more than what you think it does.



No, I'm not saying this. I'm saying that being loving and compassionate involves more than what you say it does.



If I'm right, then your idea regarding being loving and compassionate is wrong.



Are you supposing that one group is consciously rejecting Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit? If so, I've said over and over again that I disagree with your idea that the group of people exists that you're postulating, that one can consciously reject Christ and consciously resist the Holy Spirit, yet deny self, and be loving and compassionate. I think that you have a false premise here, as I've been pointing out.



I think you have a false premise here.



I don't think the best of atheists are consciously rejecting Christ or resisting the Holy Spirit.



I think this is another false premise.



Actually, I said nothing about the "best of atheists." What I in fact said is that one who consciously rejects Christ is choosing Satan, a point of view which I can easily substantiate, and one which I find odd that you would challenge. Are you challenging the idea that to consciously reject Christ is to choose Satan?



First of all, one who is serving Satan can choose to respond to the Holy Spirit, and we may see many examples of this in Scripture, and, indeed, this is what happens, to some extent at any rate, anytime one is converted.

Secondly, it is *your* idea that one who is consciously rejecting Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit can be as loving and compassionate as the best of Christians. I have repeatedly, I think a dozen times by now, asked you why you think this is the case, but you have so far refused to answer. I'm still interested in knowing why you have this idea.

Thirdly, I've repeatedly explained that I disagree with this idea, and have explained why, so you should be able to see why a question addressed to me including what I have repeatedly identified as a false premise is a flawed question.



This is my question to you, why you appear to think simultaneously serving two masters is possible, which, to my mind, is what being loving and compassionate while consciously rejecting Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit would entail.

"A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1} What kind of people do you think Ellen had in mind here? And, what do you think she had in mind for generous actions?

"I don't think the best of atheists are consciously rejecting Christ or resisting the Holy Spirit." Very interesting. I assume you have in mind they are rejecting the wrong image of Jesus?

"By best of atheists I'm talking about people who have seen Christ in the best light and have made a decision not to believe in Him." By definition atheists do not believe God eixsts.

Unconverted people.



Could be, but I wasn't assuming they were necessarily rejecting Christ at all. Many have never heard the Gospel.



This sounds like "the worst of atheists." Why would you term this the "best"?



The Bible says



so this says that all know of God, because God has revealed Himself to all. That's right, isn't it?

Tom, I'm having a hard time discerning what you believe (nothing new, eh). I think I hear you saying no atheist ("people who have seen Christ in the best light and have made a decision not to believe in Him") can be kind and loving and compassionate (e.i. work side-by-side the best of believers serving the poor and needy, etc) without responding to the sweet wooing influence of the Holy Spirit.

If this is what you're saying (not saying it is), what is the difference between their fruit and the fruit of the best of believers? Or, is there no difference since both are the result of the influence of the Holy Spirit? In particular, are they saved like the best of believers?

"A selfish heart may perform generous actions. {SC 58.1} What kind of generous actions do you think Ellen had in mind? And, do you think she assumed such actions were the direct result of them responding to the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit?

1.You used the phrase "the best of atheists" to describe atheists who had consciously rejected Christ and consciously resisted the Holy Spirit. I think these would be "the worst of atheists," while "the best of atheists" would refer to people who were unknowingly responding to the Holy Spirit.

2.I believe that being loving and compassionate, like "the best of Christians," involves more than simply outward behavior, but an inward change as well, including a denial of self.

3.I do not believe people who consciously reject Christ and consciously resist the Holy Spirit can be as loving and compassionate as "the best of Christians."

4.I believe all are saved through Jesus Christ, although many will not be aware of that fact until after the resurrection. I believe this will include those of all religions, except possibly some Satanic cults, or similar types of cults, although it wouldn't shock me if some soul in some mixed up thing like this wound up in the second resurrection. It's all about responding to the light one has.

5.Regarding generous actions, I don't know that she had anything specifically in mind. If she did, I wouldn't know what, since she didn't say. No, she wasn't referring to responding to the Holy Spirit in the actions she mentioned.

6.You haven't been responding to my questions or points, although I've asked some questions repeatedly. I've been responding to your questions. I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to mine. In particular, this one:

So, Tom and Mike, dont you think that many if not most atheists who think that they have rejected Jesus and the Holy Spirit have in fact only rejected the strawmen of Jesus that so many christians (adventists included) build up and present to the world? How many who claim to reject Jesus have really meet the living God? As opposed to having been presented to the counterfeit christ?