So, Tom and Mike, dont you think that many if not most atheists who think that they have rejected Jesus and the Holy Spirit have in fact only rejected the strawmen of Jesus that so many christians (adventists included) build up and present to the world? How many who claim to reject Jesus have really meet the living God? As opposed to having been presented to the counterfeit christ?

1.You used the phrase "the best of atheists" to describe atheists who had consciously rejected Christ and consciously resisted the Holy Spirit. I think these would be "the worst of atheists," while "the best of atheists" would refer to people who were unknowingly responding to the Holy Spirit.

2.I believe that being loving and compassionate, like "the best of Christians," involves more than simply outward behavior, but an inward change as well, including a denial of self.

3.I do not believe people who consciously reject Christ and consciously resist the Holy Spirit can be as loving and compassionate as "the best of Christians."

4.I believe all are saved through Jesus Christ, although many will not be aware of that fact until after the resurrection. I believe this will include those of all religions, except possibly some Satanic cults, or similar types of cults, although it wouldn't shock me if some soul in some mixed up thing like this wound up in the second resurrection. It's all about responding to the light one has.

5.Regarding generous actions, I don't know that she had anything specifically in mind. If she did, I wouldn't know what, since she didn't say. No, she wasn't referring to responding to the Holy Spirit in the actions she mentioned.

6.You haven't been responding to my questions or points, although I've asked some questions repeatedly. I've been responding to your questions. I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to mine. In particular, this one:

Thank you for stating your position more clearly.

You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions."

You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.

I also believe such actions can be labeled as fruits of the Spirit (not in the sense the Holy Spirit empowered them, but in the sense their generous actions are no different than the best of believers).

For example, there is no difference between the best of believers handing a poor and needy person a loaf of bread and someone who has seen Jesus in the best light and decided to believe God doesn't exist handing them a loaf of bread.

M: You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions." You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.

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T: No, it doesn't, unless you have a very shallow idea as to what being loving and compassionate means. I think this may be the case, from the looks of things.

M: For example, there is no difference between the best of believers handing a poor and needy person a loaf of bread and someone who has seen Jesus in the best light and decided to believe God doesn't exist handing them a loaf of bread.

T: What I think is that one cannot be unselfish without divine help, but one may receive divine help without realizing it, without being conscious of the fact that it is really through Jesus Christ that they are doing the good things that they do.

Question: Can someone with a selfish heart be loving and compassionate?