Your suspicion assumes that humans are by default kind and loving and compassionate and would only do good had satan not stepped in into every individuals life and ruined it for them.

I'm trying not to make assumptions. I really am trying to understand why such people are able to be kind and loving and compassionate like the best of believers. You seem to think it's because the Holy Spirit enables them. Otherwise it's not possible.

I responded to this question already. I explained I don't believe such a group of people exists.



How would you know they were deliberately rejecting Jesus Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit? You may think they're deliberately rejecting Jesus Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit when they're doing the reverse. They could be actually responding to the Holy Spirit by denying themselves and helping others, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit.



If there's no discernible difference, how do you know they are rejecting Christ or resisting the Holy Spirit?

This is getting at the point here. We're very faulty in our ability to judge others. It's human nature to want to reject those who reject our work as ones who have rejected God, and therefore God has rejected. But maybe our work is faulty, and they're not rejecting God at all, but just rejecting us.

And how do know they aren't?

Are you basing it on their fruits? "By their fruits ye shall know them." Is exercising kindness and love and compassion like the best of believers proof they are "actually responding to the Holy Spirit by denying themselves and helping others, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit"?

Ellen wrote:

They may produce an outward correctness of behavior . . . {SC 18.1}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

By Scripture, and by logic. Let's consider the logic part. Why do you think it's logical that one can choose Satan over Christ, and be as loving and compassionate as the best of Christians? You seem to have the idea that whether one accepts Christ or rejects Him has no effect on one's character. I don't understand this.

What I believe is one my think one is rejecting Christ, when one isn't really. That is, if Christ has been misrepresented to one, and one rejects that misrepresentation, but responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit (for example, to deny self and be kind and compassionate), one is, in reality, not rejecting Christ. But when you say, as a supposition, that one is consciously rejecting Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit, I don't see why you would think such a one could have a character as good as "the best of Christians." This doesn't make sense to me.



If you're asking if denying self, and choosing to be loving and compassionate, as opposed to being selfish, is proof that one is responding to the Holy Spirit, yes, that what it appears to me to be.

What makes you think they have chosen Satan?


Is being kind and loving and compassionate the same thing as having a character as good as the best of Christians?


In essence then you're saying atheists who are kind and loving and compassionate are in reality experiencing the fruits of the Spirit under the influence of the Holy Spirit. This idea seems to be at odds with the following insight:

It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness. {SC 18.1}

What you said makes me think so. You said they were consciously rejecting Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit.



It's closely related. The really key part of this is the part about rejecting Christ and resisting the Holy Spirit.



Actually I'm saying the reverse. I'm saying that atheists, or whoever, who respond to the Holy Spirit will exhibit the fruits of the Holy Spirit, including being kind and compassionate. Also I'll say that apart from the Holy Spirit, I don't see how one can deny self, so I'm still not understanding your idea.



No, MM! This is exactly my point! You're the one saying it's possible for atheists and others who consciously reject Christ and resist the Holy Spirit to be as loving and compassionate as "the best of Christians." I'm rejecting this idea, and, in so doing, am in harmony with what's being said here. You're saying the reverse, it appears to me.

You haven't answered any of my questions. Please answer my questions. It's really hard to follow your train of thought here.



Yes, this is what I've been saying.

I found this in USA Weekend about a survey:

"Non-believers, about 5%, didn't miss a chance to chime in with declarations that we can all be good without God."

If that being true, maybe we'll have to say, by their fruits we won't know them.

5% is smaller than I would have expected.