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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12995
04/12/05 02:31 AM
04/12/05 02:31 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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According to Peter, quoted above, newborn babes are free from sin, dead to sin, having laid aside all evil speaking, all envies, all hypocrisies, all guile, and all malice. According to James, he who sets aside all evil speaking "is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." Jam 3:2.

Such are those who are counseled to "desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." The milk of God's word is for newborn babes, who are free from sin. In other words, the milk doesn't help them figure out how to rid themselves of known sin, rather, it helps them to grow in grace, and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, in exactly the same way Jesus grew and matured and developed perfect traits of character.

But this is only true IF they have tasted the goodness and power of God to deliver them from their former sinful traits of character, their old man habits of sin. "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Elsewhere Peter talks about the privilege of partaking of the divine nature, but it is only for those who have already escaped the lusts of the flesh.

2 Peter
1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Peter makes it clear that only those who have already escaped the lusts of the flesh, their former sinful traits of character, can claim the promises of God and partake of the divine nature. The divine nature does not empower them to gradually cease sinning, instead, it empowers them to grow in grace, to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, and to develop the Christlike traits of character they received when they were born again.

DA 676
When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

COL 330
All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12996
04/13/05 03:12 AM
04/13/05 03:12 AM
Tom  Offline
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quote:
According to the SOP "one ray of the glory of God" makes every defect and deformity painfully obvious. Sin isn't so sneaky that it can evade the glory of God. And, yes, after we are born again, after we receive the mind of the new man, we have a ton of growing to do. But the growth we experience, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, is the same growth Jesus experienced as He grew from childhood to manhood. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth.

There are a number of differences between us and Jesus at birth. I'll mention a couple. First of all, Jesus did not know anything at birth, except what a new born baby knows. We know considerably more than a new born baby. Secondly, Jesus never had any incorrect thoughts. We have have many, and continue to have many. We need to be educated to think correctly and to correct our incorrect thoughts. Jesus also had to be educated to think correctly, but only in the sense of maturing. He never had any incorrect thoughts.

Part of learning experience is to learn how much unlike Jesus we really are. Jesus, of course, did not need to learn this, since He was always like Jesus.

I think by comparing us to Jesus at birth what you have in mind is neiter we nor He had defects of character, but this is a pointless comparison. Jesus at birth had no character at all, except whatever character a new born baby might have, which isn't much. We have well developed characters when we are converted, with much which needs to be unlearned, which doesn't all happen at the moment of conversion.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12997
04/13/05 04:42 AM
04/13/05 04:42 AM
V
vastergotland  Offline
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Ewall:
Secondly, Jesus never had any incorrect thoughts. We have have many, and continue to have many. We need to be educated to think correctly and to correct our incorrect thoughts. Jesus also had to be educated to think correctly, but only in the sense of maturing. He never had any incorrect thoughts.

What do you mean by "incorrect thought"? and what is the difference between an incorrect thought and a temptation (which we are told that Jesus knew/knows like us)?

/Thomas

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12998
04/13/05 03:56 PM
04/13/05 03:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, yes, I agree with you, Jesus wasn't born with fully developed traits of character. And neither are we. Like Jesus, we are born again with all of the righteous traits, fruits, and attributes of God. Not one is missing. But they are undeveloped. That's what sanctification is all about. Sanctification is a lifelong process of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.

Having incorrect or unholy thoughts or feelings, like Thomas alluded to, isn't a sin or the result of a defective trait of character. At least, not initially. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. And, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted. Our guilt or innocence is based on what we do with the sinful thoughts and feelings that regularly come into mind.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #12999
04/13/05 05:48 PM
04/13/05 05:48 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Tom, yes, I agree with you, Jesus wasn't born with fully developed traits of character. And neither are we. Like Jesus, we are born again with all of the righteous traits, fruits, and attributes of God.
We already have traits of character when we are born again. Jesus did not have traits of character when He was born (except for what a baby would have, which isn't much). We have much more character development than a baby.

We do not have the attributes of God. We have the attributes of a converted human being. We have some characteristics of God insofar as His character is concerned, but these are not the same things as attributes. (I'm being a bit picky here, but I think this is necessary in order to try to understand what you are actually trying to say).

quote:

Not one is missing. But they are undeveloped. That's what sanctification is all about. Sanctification is a lifelong process of developing the sinless traits of character we received the moment we were born again.

What does it mean to receive a sinless trait of character?

quote:

Having incorrect or unholy thoughts or feelings, like Thomas alluded to, isn't a sin or the result of a defective trait of character. At least, not initially. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. And, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted. Our guilt or innocence is based on what we do with the sinful thoughts and feelings that regularly come into mind.

Provided we know they are wrong. There are many things we do ignorantly which are wrong. These are defects of characters if one considers the character as having to do with one's thoughts and feelings. One does not incur guilt for what one does not know, if one is not purposely avoiding light, but this does not alter the fact that one is acting with incorrect thoughts and actions, which is by definition character -- hence the character is defective.

Maybe there's something in the Spirit of Prophesy which supports your use of the phrase "defective character". If you can produce a quote where she uses the phrase the same way you are, you may do so, but it seems to me your are using the phrase in an odd way. A "defective character" would be having thoughts and actions which are not just like Christ's, regardless of whether you were aware of that or not. At least, this is the way it seems to me. You have defined the term, it seems to me, that it's only defective if it's not like Christ and you are aware of that fact.

"It is not only at the beginning of the Christian life that this renunciation of self is to be made. At every advance step heavenward it is to be renewed. All our good works are dependent on a power outside of ourselves. Therefore there needs to be a continual reaching out of the heart after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the soul before Him. Only by constant renunciation of self and dependence on Christ can we walk safely.

The nearer we come to Jesus and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly we shall discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the less we shall feel like exalting ourselves. " (Col 159, 160)

" The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only--

'In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling.'" (IHP 64)

It seems to me from the Spirit of Prophesy, we:
1) Compare ourselves (i.e. our characters) to Christ.
2) Realise how woefully different they are from Christ's.
3) Repent.

The closer we come to Christ, the more we realise the difference between Christ's character and our own, hence the deeper our repentance.

Your theory would seems to me to have the danger of blinding oneself to one's own defect of character by mistakenly think the character is not defective when it is. Comparing one's character to Christ's character should remedy this.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13000
04/14/05 12:24 AM
04/14/05 12:24 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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“The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” (6 BC 1101)

“True conversion is a radical change. The very drift of the mind and bent of the heart should be turned and life become new again in Christ.” (4T 17)

“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” (RH 7-22-1890)

“The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity.” (CG 477)

“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ." (6BC 1075)

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13001
04/14/05 12:32 AM
04/14/05 12:32 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Southwest USA
According to the quotes post above rebirth is a rare and radical transformation of character. It isn't a common occurence among professed believers. It is rare. It is radical. It involves a complete and total change. When we are born again "we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity." Rebirth is a miracle, a re-creation, not a gradual evolution from greater sins to lesser sins. During the "process of conversion" we confess and crucify our defective traits of character, and then we are born again without them - as totally new creature in Christ.

SC 57, 58
A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

COL 330
God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

7BC 943
We must learn of Christ. We must know what He is to those He has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in Him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . [Eph. 2:1-6 quoted.] . . . {7BC 943.1}

As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus (RH April 24, 1900). {7BC 943.2}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13002
04/14/05 03:30 AM
04/14/05 03:30 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
When we are born again "we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity."
Where did you get this from? It seems to me you just made it up. I didn't see it in any of the quotes you gave.

I would find it far more helpful if rather than quoting a whole bunch of statements which don't deal with the issue (at least in any way I can see) if you would just quote one or two which *do* deal with the issue, and discuss those. I can't read your mind. I don't know why you're quoting the statements you quote unless you explain why.

Rather than rewrite the questions I had in my post previous to this one, I'll ask you please re-address them.

I'm open to your showing that the SOP says that when we are born again that we no longer have defective characters, although in my present way of thinking it doesn't make sense to me, but you would have to convince me that my way of thinking is wrong, and none of the statements you produced seem to me to be saying anything different than what I think.

I presented a well developed argument based on the chapter the "Two Worshippers" from "Christ's Object Lessons". I would appreciate it if you would consider that argument, and respond to it.

Thank you.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13003
04/14/05 01:02 PM
04/14/05 01:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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quote:
Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . [Eph. 2:1-6 quoted.] . . . {7BC 943.1}
When is then? I believe, according to the other quotes posted above, it is a miracle that happens the moment we are born again. "The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are." SC 57.

"When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.” 6BC 1101.

“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” RH 7-22-1890. "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." 6BC 1101.

These insights are so clear, so plain, so easy to understand, that I don't see what else I can say to show how they apply to what I've saying about them. We are radically different the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. It's that simple, that awesome, that wonderful. But, it's also a rare thing. "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." 6BC 1075.

“Many who profess to follow Christ have not genuine religion. They do not reveal in their lives the fruit of true conversion. They are controlled by the same habits, the same spirit of faultfinding and selfishness, which controlled them before they accepted Christ. No one can enter the city of God who has not a knowledge of genuine conversion. In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” (RH 7-30-1901)

"All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Again, when is then? When do we experience this radical transformation? Why is it so rare? Your view implies it is common.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13004
04/15/05 10:08 PM
04/15/05 10:08 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Again, when is then? When do we experience this radical transformation? Why is it so rare? Your view implies it is common.
I don't understand this. What's my view? What is it I think is common?

Regarding the when, depending on which quote you're talking about, the when is at different times. The "need not retain one sinful propensity" is not referring to the moment of conversion, I don't believe. I think it's referring to our Christian experience as a whole.

I'd be interested in your response to the post I made a couple of posts ago regarding the two worshippers and repentance deepening as we progressively see ourselves and Christ more and more clearly. How do you understand this?

One final thought. Do you think that our characters depend upon our thinking? (that is, thy are shaped by the things we think)

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