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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: NJK Project]
#130221
01/19/11 03:14 PM
01/19/11 03:14 PM
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The following passage contains everything Ellen wrote about the Seven Thunders: Daniel and Revelation. The mighty Angel who instructed John was no less a personage than Jesus Christ. Setting His right foot on the sea, and His left upon the dry land, shows the part which He is acting in the closing scenes of the great controversy with Satan. This position denotes His supreme power and authority over the whole earth. The controversy has waxed stronger and more determined from age to age, and will continue to do so, to the concluding scenes when the masterly working of the powers of darkness shall reach their height. Satan, united with evil men, will deceive the whole world and the churches who receive not the love of the truth. But the mighty Angel demands attention. He cries with a loud voice. He is to show the power and authority of His voice to those who have united with Satan to oppose the truth. {19MR 319.3}
After these seven thunders uttered their voices, the instruction comes to John as to Daniel in regard to the little book: "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered." These relate to future events which will be disclosed in their order. Daniel shall stand in his lot at the end of the days. John sees the little book unsealed. Then Daniel's prophecies have their proper place in the first, second, and third angels' messages to be given to the world. The unsealing of the little book was the message in relation to time. {19MR 320.1}
The books of Daniel and the Revelation are one. One is a prophecy, the other a revelation; one a book sealed, the other a book opened. John heard the mysteries which the thunders uttered, but he was commanded not to write them. {19MR 320.2}
The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the Angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {19MR 320.3}
This time, which the angel declares with a solemn oath, is not the end of this world's history, neither of probationary time, but of prophetic time, which should precede the advent of our Lord. That is, the people will not have another message upon definite time. After this period of time, reaching from 1842 to 1844, there can be no definite tracing of the prophetic time. The longest reckoning reaches to the autumn of 1844. {19MR 320.4}
The Angel's position, with one foot on the sea, the other on the land, signifies the wide extent of the proclamation of the message. It will cross the broad waters and be proclaimed in other countries, even to all the world. The comprehension of truth, the glad reception of the message, is represented in the eating of the little book. The truth in regard to the time of the advent of our Lord was a precious message to our souls. {19MR 321.1}
The greatest work to be done in this life is to make preparation for the future life, for that life which measures with the life of God. A probation has been granted us that, notwithstanding the difficulties, we may cultivate virtues which shall carry us into the higher life. Pure love for one another is exercised by those who are partakers of the divine nature.
{19MR 321.2} In particular she wrote: "The special light given to John which was expressed in the seven thunders was a delineation of events which would transpire under the first and second angels' messages. It was not best for the people to know these things, for their faith must necessarily be tested. In the order of God most wonderful and advanced truths would be proclaimed. The first and second angels' messages were to be proclaimed, but no further light was to be revealed before these messages had done their specific work. This is represented by the Angel standing with one foot on the sea, proclaiming with a most solemn oath that time should be no longer. {19MR 320.3} How do you envision this being repeated in the future? Also, do you think the events delineated in Ezekiel transpired during the Millerite Movement?
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130237
01/19/11 06:15 PM
01/19/11 06:15 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Posts: 3,965
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Is Ellen White the infallible interpreter of Scripture?
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: vastergotland]
#130245
01/20/11 02:23 AM
01/20/11 02:23 AM
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130255
01/20/11 09:27 AM
01/20/11 09:27 AM
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The argument seems to follow the lines of "Ellen says it, I believe it and that settles it for me"..
The biblical approach seems to rather be:
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.
Thus, compare what is said with the Scriptures, and:
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
Thus, when the prophet interprets scripture, you test the interpretation and keep what is good.
The conclusion is that prophets are not infallible interpreters of scripture, for scripture is the basis for testing prophets. If you interpret the scripture through the prophet, the scripture will no longer function as a basis for testing said prophet (as you would end up with :Prophet X has told us that the Bible confirms everything Prophet X is saying and that we therefore must trust Prophet X or perish doing otherwise, therefore we know that we can trust Prophet X since when we use the Prophets interpretation, the bible does tell us that the prophet must be right).
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: vastergotland]
#130261
01/20/11 02:55 PM
01/20/11 02:55 PM
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Thomas, who is the final authority? Who determines what is the correct prophetic interpretation and application of a previously uttered prophecy?
Can we trust the NT? Or, must we study the OT to determine whether the NT presents the correct interpretation and application?
If you and I disagree, who determines who is correct?
If the SDA church interpretation and application disagrees with the rest of Christendom, who decides who is correct?
Is it possible to arrive at absolute truth based on Bible study? Or, is it a matter of opinion and personal preference?
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130282
01/20/11 09:29 PM
01/20/11 09:29 PM
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Thomas, who is the final authority? Who determines what is the correct prophetic interpretation and application of a previously uttered prophecy?
God is the final authority, everyone else is approximating truth. Any prophecy is to be compared with the clearest revelation of God known to mankind, the person and teaching of Jesus Christ.
Can we trust the NT? Or, must we study the OT to determine whether the NT presents the correct interpretation and application?
The NT, containing the testimony of the life and teaching of Jesus is the lens through which the Spirit who gives prophecy guides us into all Truth as far as we are able and willing to follow it.
If you and I disagree, who determines who is correct?
Many of the topics we discuss are mysteries; who is to say that both are not equally right and approaching Truth from different angles?
If the SDA church interpretation and application disagrees with the rest of Christendom, who decides who is correct?
The SDA church claims its reason for existing as having a God-given message to the world. Other churches, having received different messages make other emphasises than does the SDA church. Then all churches have more or less misunderstandings or misinterpretations in their doctrines. We can inform others in some areas as they must inform us in other areas.
Is it possible to arrive at absolute truth based on Bible study? Or, is it a matter of opinion and personal preference?
It is not possible to arrive at absolute truth, for then your knowledge would equal that of God. Nor is reaching towards absolute truth the primary objective of a christian life. Gods perfection is shown by how He acts with love and grace towards friend and foe, reaching towards this is our primary goal. Jesus only hard words were for those who put burdens on others backs, for those who profited on the expense of others. But for the men who flogged him, put thorns on his brow and penetrated his hands with nails, He prayed for their forgiveness and salvation. This is where we must reach, to a burden to love even those who cause us unspeakable harm.
Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: vastergotland]
#130293
01/21/11 07:22 AM
01/21/11 07:22 AM
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
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I indeed quote and discuss this passage of EGW on the 7 thunders in my postand it is indeed here that I find the “testing” aspect of the 7 Thunders. How do you envision this being repeated in the future?
Also, do you think the events delineated in Ezekiel transpired during the Millerite Movement?
The background of much of what I have posted on my blog is contextually needed for the following statements but I cannot restate them all here. Nonetheless, here goes: In a vision on the Third Angel’s message (EW 254.1ff) EGW says that: “[Jesus] sent another mighty angel with a third message to the world. A parchment was placed in the angel's hand,” not much has been said about the pointed and deliberate description and association here, but thematic comparison and exegetical studies shows that this is echoing the angel in Rev. 10 that descends with a “little scroll” in his hand. As such the Third Angels message can be understood to be most prominently associated with the message of the 7 thunders and as already demonstrated on my blog, this is also associated with the “unrolling of the scroll” theme crucially expressed by EGW. It can therefore be seen and understood that the message of Ezekiel, which is, from Ezekiel 8 & 9, a “post Church-sealing’ message, revolves especially around the full unfolding of the third angel’s message. I see that the first and second angel’s message were, like the first part of Ezekiel, as shown in the table on my blog, an attempt, in judgement by God’s approaching throne, to reform the existing Israel. This was all seen in the judgement message upon the Millerites, which similarly spoke of a “approaching of God to earth” and then (second angel) sought to separate God’s people from the Babylonian error it had “collected” during its days of Captivity. It is then that the Third Angel (in Ezekiel 8:1ff begins to do its work, starting with a sealing message which paramountly also involves God Sabbath, as well as a deeper intellectual and spiritual understanding and application of the truth. Much more is said on these in my blog posts.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: NJK Project]
#130320
01/21/11 05:36 PM
01/21/11 05:36 PM
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Thomas, thank you for answering my questions.
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130322
01/21/11 05:41 PM
01/21/11 05:41 PM
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NJK, it seems to me you are unnaturally forcing the 7 Thunders to fit into your prophetic model. John was told not to record them. Consequently, we have no idea what they are (other than Ellen saying they described events that happened during the Millerite Movement).
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Re: Bible Study Method's - Methods used by Jeff Pippenger
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130330
01/21/11 07:16 PM
01/21/11 07:16 PM
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As I have said before, if you refuse to read the establishing background and contextual materials in regards to the 7 thunders it is really only “natural” (1 Cor 2:14) that you come to such ‘knee-jerk’ conclusion. Biblical Exegesis and the many thematically linking clues that God has given around this message help us to figure out what they are. If you “won’t read details” then don’t make the false claim that “these can never be understood”. That is a quite unbiblical approach, to say the least.
Also the torch of Biblical understanding did not end with EGW and, as shown before, she also did not see that the 7 thunders were all exhausted/fulfilled with the Millerite. She understood that a future, (i.e., future to 1900) fulfillment under the Third Angel’s message would transpire. There is also a whole issue of Historical fulfillments and eschatological fulfillments that is to involved and complex to be succinctly stated in sound bite here, nonetheless I have through study seen and understood that the an eschatological fulfillment is applicable today, with the previously started historical one having been halted, as seen with OT prophecies, and also due to the unworthiness of God’s Israel then.
Also you may see this as “forcing” because the 1st Angel and 2nd Angel message were said to cover the events of Ezekiel 1-7 while the Third is said to start with Ezekiel 8 and extend through the end of the book. Well proportionality of text is not a hermeneutic requirement for understanding applicable fulfillment, but only the actual content of the passages. Still it can be seen even in the experience of the Millerites and later SDA’s that the 1st and 2nd Angel’s Message periods were relatively short compared to the Third Angel which started in the late 1840's and continues until today, as its message has not yet done its work.
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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