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Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: vastergotland] #129966
01/04/11 08:01 PM
01/04/11 08:01 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
So, Tom and Mike, dont you think that many if not most atheists who think that they have rejected Jesus and the Holy Spirit have in fact only rejected the strawmen of Jesus that so many christians (adventists included) build up and present to the world? How many who claim to reject Jesus have really meet the living God? As opposed to having been presented to the counterfeit christ?


Yes, that's what I think.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129969
01/05/11 12:45 AM
01/05/11 12:45 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
1.You used the phrase "the best of atheists" to describe atheists who had consciously rejected Christ and consciously resisted the Holy Spirit. I think these would be "the worst of atheists," while "the best of atheists" would refer to people who were unknowingly responding to the Holy Spirit.

2.I believe that being loving and compassionate, like "the best of Christians," involves more than simply outward behavior, but an inward change as well, including a denial of self.

3.I do not believe people who consciously reject Christ and consciously resist the Holy Spirit can be as loving and compassionate as "the best of Christians."

4.I believe all are saved through Jesus Christ, although many will not be aware of that fact until after the resurrection. I believe this will include those of all religions, except possibly some Satanic cults, or similar types of cults, although it wouldn't shock me if some soul in some mixed up thing like this wound up in the second resurrection. It's all about responding to the light one has.

5.Regarding generous actions, I don't know that she had anything specifically in mind. If she did, I wouldn't know what, since she didn't say. No, she wasn't referring to responding to the Holy Spirit in the actions she mentioned.

6.You haven't been responding to my questions or points, although I've asked some questions repeatedly. I've been responding to your questions. I'd appreciate it if you'd respond to mine. In particular, this one:

Quote:
M:Some do, of course, but I hazard to guess most do not. Many are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, New Age, etc, all of whom are very capable of performing generous actions in a kind, loving, and compassionate way.

T:I don't doubt that, but I doubt your idea that they do so while consciously rejecting Christ and consciously resisting the Holy Spirit. I've been asking you why you even think this is possible, and haven't seen a response. Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Thank you for stating your position more clearly.

You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions." You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.

I also believe such actions can be labeled as fruits of the Spirit (not in the sense the Holy Spirit empowered them, but in the sense their generous actions are no different than the best of believers). For example, there is no difference between the best of believers handing a poor and needy person a loaf of bread and someone who has seen Jesus in the best light and decided to believe God doesn't exist handing them a loaf of bread.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129974
01/05/11 01:39 AM
01/05/11 01:39 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Thank you for stating your position more clearly.

You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions."


These are miles apart in meaning.

Quote:
You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.


I think it's clear from the context that what EGW is saying is that a selfish heart can produce actions which may appear to others to be unselfish. She's not saying that a selfish person can perform genuinely unselfish deeds. There are all sorts of Scripture texts that contradict this idea. For example, James speaks of how a bitter spring cannot produce sweet water. The whole principle of conversion is that the heart must be made pure.

Quote:
I also believe such actions can be labeled as fruits of the Spirit (not in the sense the Holy Spirit empowered them, but in the sense their generous actions are no different than the best of believers).


But isn't there a difference? Isn't that what Jesus Christ taught when He said not to let the left hand know what the right hand is doing, that the Pharisees had their reward, while the widow who gave her mite without anyone seeing gave more than all the rest?

Quote:
For example, there is no difference between the best of believers handing a poor and needy person a loaf of bread and someone who has seen Jesus in the best light and decided to believe God doesn't exist handing them a loaf of bread.


Why do you think a someone who has seen Jesus in the best light, and rejected Him (I assume this is what you mean), would do such a thing? This is where we're disagreeing. You appear to think that rejecting Christ, or accepting Him, is independent of one's character; that is, that regardless of whether or not one rejects or accepts Christ, one can be just as unselfish. What I think is that one cannot be unselfish without divine help, but one may receive divine help without realizing it, without being conscious of the fact that it is really through Jesus Christ that they are doing the good things that they do.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129983
01/05/11 04:21 PM
01/05/11 04:21 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
Quote:
M: You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions." You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.

----

T: No, it doesn't, unless you have a very shallow idea as to what being loving and compassionate means. I think this may be the case, from the looks of things.

Question: Can someone with a selfish heart be loving and compassionate?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #129993
01/06/11 02:57 AM
01/06/11 02:57 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: For example, there is no difference between the best of believers handing a poor and needy person a loaf of bread and someone who has seen Jesus in the best light and decided to believe God doesn't exist handing them a loaf of bread.

T: What I think is that one cannot be unselfish without divine help, but one may receive divine help without realizing it, without being conscious of the fact that it is really through Jesus Christ that they are doing the good things that they do.

You seem to be saying anyone who hands a poor and needy person a loaf bread does so through divine help and Jesus Christ, the fact they saw Jesus in the best light and chose to believe God does not exist does not prevent them from experiencing "righteousness aned true hliness" the same as the best of believers.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #129994
01/06/11 02:58 AM
01/06/11 02:58 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
M: You asked, "Why do you think someone consciously resisting the Holy Spirit could manifest the fruits of the Holy Spirit?" Because Ellen wrote, "A selfish heart can perform generous actions." You and I agree she's not saying they are responding to the Holy Spirit. In my book, helping the poor and needy qualifies as generous actions.

----

T: No, it doesn't, unless you have a very shallow idea as to what being loving and compassionate means. I think this may be the case, from the looks of things.

Question: Can someone with a selfish heart be loving and compassionate?

Have you ever witnessed what I described above?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129998
01/06/11 02:50 PM
01/06/11 02:50 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,499
Midland
I have been deceived many times by those apparently doing good, but later found out it only appeared to be. Their comments and attitude revealed differently. My experience has been that those who appear the best are some of the worst, but maybe it's only because I came to know them and have the inside story. But, maybe some that don't appear so good, are at least honest in their appearance of actions.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #130043
01/08/11 09:33 PM
01/08/11 09:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yeah, I know what you mean. Have you ever met a person who learned about the Lord in the best light and chose not to believe God exists and in spite of it are truly kind and loving and compassionate? I meet plenty of them. Most of my extended family are like that. Tom seems to think they are benefiting from the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #130074
01/10/11 09:30 PM
01/10/11 09:30 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
1.Why would you think that your extended family was learned about the Lord in the best light?
2.Why do you think one can be truly loving and compassionate without God's assistance?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #130082
01/11/11 06:12 PM
01/11/11 06:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
1. Because most of my extended family were raised by kind, loving, and compassionate Christian parents. They were not taught to fear the Father.

2. Because people like my extended family are truly kind, loving, and compassionate.

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