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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13025
04/21/05 07:15 AM
04/21/05 07:15 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Mike
I was of the impression that this thread dealt with christians, believers.
/Thomas
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13026
04/21/05 10:41 AM
04/21/05 10:41 AM
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Brazil
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Mike,
Circumstances and temptations reveal your weaknesses, but this doesn’t mean you must fall into sin. The circumstance just reveals what is in your heart. Let’s say a given circumstance or temptation makes you experience self-pity, for instance. You become aware of that weak point of your character. The question is, are you going to yield to self-pity or are you going to recognize and battle self-pity?
If, however, we do fall into sin, we have a precious promise:
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13027
04/21/05 03:55 PM
04/21/05 03:55 PM
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OP
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Rosangela, I agree. But when a person is born again their "old man" habits of sin, their defective traits of character, are crucified. They no longer reside in the heart. They are dead and buried. However, character is not the only thing that is developed and cultivated as we habitually make wrong choices. They also add to and/or strengthen our inherited propensities to evil, our sinful flesh nature.
Yes, test, trial, and temptation make our sinful predispositions painfully obvious. However, after we experience the miracle of rebirth, sinful character is no longer a secondary source of our weaknesses. As born again believers, who walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, the primary and only source of all our faults, imperfections, and shortcomings is sinful nature.
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
Since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that, when we are born again, our "old man" defective traits of character are dead and buried, that we are dead to sin and awake to righteousness and true holiness, we must not, therefore, assume that the presence of unholy thoughts and feelings indicates an unknown or unconquered sinful trait of character. All temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. The origin of temptation is sinful nature, not sinful character.
If we misidentify the origin of tempting thoughts and feelings, which bombard us daily, then we run the risk of misunderstanding the promises of God. The Bible describes born again believers as those who do not and cannot, while abiding in Christ, commit a known sin. Since this is true, it is obvious, then, that the existence of tempting thoughts and feelings is not the result of unknown or unconquered defective traits of character. It is merely evidence that we still possess a fallen nature, which continually generates and communicates unholy thoughts and feelings.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13028
04/21/05 03:58 PM
04/21/05 03:58 PM
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OP
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quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13029
04/22/05 10:53 AM
04/22/05 10:53 AM
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5500+ Member
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Brazil
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quote:
But when a person is born again their "old man" habits of sin, their defective traits of character, are crucified. They no longer reside in the heart. They are dead and buried.
Mike,
At conversion we can say that our defective traits of character are dead, self and selfishness are dead, the old man is dead, only in the sense that they are subdued, dethroned, not in the sense that they are eliminated. We will continually have to battle them:
“Our morning meeting was held in the tent. I spoke again about thirty minutes in reference to genuine sanctification which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God. Paul's sanctification was a daily conflict with self. Said he, ‘I die daily’ (1 Cor. 15:31). His will and his desires daily conflicted with duty and the will of God. In the plan of not following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature.” {TDG 251.2}
We will be daily tempted to manifest again our natural defects of character, but we can be victorious in this struggle through Christ:
“We have each a daily work to do, to correct our natural defects of character, and to cultivate the Christian graces. Only by the accomplishment of this work, can we hope to share in the reward of the righteous." {RH, May 30, 1882 par. 18}
"When there is a determined purpose born in your heart to overcome, you will have a disposition to overcome, and will cultivate those traits of character that are desirable, and will engage in the conflict with steady, persevering effort. You will exercise a ceaseless watchfulness over your defects of character; and will cultivate right practices in little things. The difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ. Earnest, persevering effort will place you on the vantage-ground of victory; for he who strives to overcome in and through the grace of Christ, will have divine enlightenment, and will understand how great truths can be brought into little things, and religion can be carried into the little as well as into the large concerns of life. {YI, September 7, 1893}
And gradually the sinful traits can be eliminated from the character:
“As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good.” {Mar 225.7}
[edited to add a passage]
[ April 22, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Rosangela ]
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13030
04/22/05 01:43 PM
04/22/05 01:43 PM
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quote:
At conversion we can say that our defective traits of character are dead, self and selfishness are dead, the old man is dead, only in the sense that they are subdued, dethroned, not in the sense that they are eliminated. We will continually have to battle them:
Okay, you believe they are controlled, and I believe they are crucified, but the results are basically the same, namely, we are victorious in Christ. Some people, however, seem unwilling to admit even that much. It also seems like you believe our defective traits of character are, over time, eventually eliminated. Which is better than saying they aren't dead and buried until Jesus returns.
As you study this important topic what do you make of the following insights:
FLB 23
We need not retain one sinful propensity. . . . As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of His nature, we cooperate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. {FLB 23.4}
TSB 98
By what means shall the young man repress his evil propensities, and develop what is noble and good in his character? The will, intellect, and emotions when controlled by the power of religion will become transformed. "Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God" [1 Cor. 10:31]. Here is a principle underlying every act, thought, and motive if the entire being is under control of the will of God. {TSB 98.1}
The voice and passions must be crucified. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" [Phil. 4:13]. The will, the appetites and passions, will clamor for indulgence, but God has implanted within you desires for high and holy purposes; and it is not necessary that these should be debased. This is so only when we refuse to submit to the control of reason and conscience. We are to restrain our passions and deny self. {TSB 98.2}
AH 127, 128
The lower passions have their seat in the body and work through it. The words "flesh" or "fleshly" or "carnal lusts" embrace the lower, corrupt nature; the flesh of itself cannot act contrary to the will of God. We are commanded to crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts. How shall we do it? Shall we inflict pain on the body? No; but put to death the temptation to sin. The corrupt thought is to be expelled. Every thought is to be brought into captivity to Jesus Christ. All animal propensities are to be subjected to the higher powers of the soul. The love of God must reign supreme; Christ must occupy an undivided throne. Our bodies are to be regarded as His purchased possession. The members of the body are to become the instruments of righteousness. {AH 127.2}
CG 446
Some will acknowledge the evil of sinful indulgences, yet will excuse themselves by saying that they cannot overcome their passions. This is a terrible admission for any person to make who names Christ. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Why is this weakness? It is because the animal propensities have been strengthened by exercise, until they have gained the ascendancy over the higher powers. Men and women lack principle. They are dying spiritually, because they have so long pampered their natural appetites that their power of self-government seems gone. The lower passions of their nature have taken the reins, and that which should be the governing power has become the servant of corrupt passion. The soul is held in lowest bondage. Sensuality has quenched the desire for holiness and withered spiritual prosperity. {CG 446.2}
What is the difference between sinful character and sinful nature as it relates to Paul's insight regarding the crucifixion of the "old man" and the "body of sin"?
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13031
04/22/05 03:01 PM
04/22/05 03:01 PM
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OP
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quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
MAR 58
None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth. Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome. {Mar 58.3}
This applies to the thief on the cross, the apostle John, and the 144,000. Jesus will not change the character of anyone when He returns. It must be done before we die or before we are translated alive.
6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God... The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13032
04/22/05 05:08 PM
04/22/05 05:08 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Will Jesus change our unrevealed, uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character when He returns?
Unrevealed habits/traits of character will be changed by a revelation of truth, right? For example, Luther will start observing the Sabbath and hugging Jews.
I find the language you use a bit wierd, as it is tautalogical. You talk about "uncrucified, sinful habits and traits of character" which you define as things which people know to be wrong. So a clearer way of saying the same thing you are saying, it seems to me, would be simply to be to say that when people are converted, their rebelliousness is healed -- being justified by faith, they have peace with God. Isn't this saying the same thing?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13033
04/22/05 07:20 PM
04/22/05 07:20 PM
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OP
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Rosangela,
If the evidence that a person subdues, rather than eliminates, their defects when they’re born again is based on the fact they must labor to resist the temptations associated with them, and if they eventually die out, would it be reasonable to assume, then, that the evidence a particular defect has been eliminated is the fact the born again believer can no longer be tempted by it? If the defects of born again believers devolve, diminish, and disappear gradually, is it safe to assume, then, they will eventually reach a point where they can no longer be tempted? Is temptation really evidence our defects have not been eliminated?
Do the words subdue, remove, not retain, remedied, as they relate to our defective traits of character, mean the same thing? The reason I ask is because Sister White wrote, “Every defect in the moral character must first be remedied, every stain removed by the cleansing blood of Christ, and all the unlovely, unlovable traits of character overcome.” (Mar 58) She prefaces this statement by warning, “None will be translated to heaven while their hearts are filled with the rubbish of earth.” Elsewhere she warns, “The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual.” (4T 429)
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13034
04/22/05 07:27 PM
04/22/05 07:27 PM
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OP
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Tom, did Luther knowingly, willfully break the sabbath and withhold hugging Jews? Were they defective traits of character he cherished and was unwilling to confess, forsake and crucify? If so, do you think Jesus can, or will, justify such a person and take him to heaven?
Yes, overcoming rebelliousness and "not retaining one sinful propensity" are synonymous.
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