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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13005
04/17/05 02:54 AM
04/17/05 02:54 AM
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OP
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Sister White makes it clear rebirth is rare, your view seems to imply it is common. The quotes I’ve provided above also make it clear that we experience a radical change of character the instant we are born again. We need not retain one sinful propensity; those who do are not truly born again. "When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.”
“In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ."
Some people resist the truth because they do not understand it. So, in reality, they are not rejecting the truth, instead they are rejecting a lie. The idea that we are reborn first, and then we gradually, over the course of a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less, outgrow our defective traits of character - is simply not true. The Bible and the SOP do not support this evolution model of sanctification. “That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.”
What can be more rare, more radical than her description of rebirth? Instead of assuming she cannot possibly mean what she said, we should devote our time and energy figuring out how and why it is true.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13006
04/16/05 03:00 PM
04/16/05 03:00 PM
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Regarding the two worshippers. Yes, of course, the more fully we comprehend the sinlessness of Jesus, the more fully we realize our sinfulness, the deeper our sense of shame and guilt will be, and the more fully we will appreciate our Saviour and salvation.
Yes, our thoughts shape our character.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13007
04/17/05 07:07 AM
04/17/05 07:07 AM
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quote:
Sister White makes it clear rebirth is rare, your view seems to imply it is common. The quotes I’ve provided above also make it clear that we experience a radical change of character the instant we are born again. We need not retain one sinful propensity; those who do are not truly born again. "When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.”
What of my view implies rebirth is common, and what of EGW's view says it is rare?
Your logic is off in the above. The quote says that those who retain "all" of their natural defect of character do not differ from the worldling, and are not born again. Of course! There's no difference between them. How could they be born again? Retaining all natual defects of character is not the same as not retaining any, which is where your logic is off. I'm not aware of any SOP or Biblical passages which support your theory.
Here's what to me is the clearest depiction of being born again means from the Spirit of Prophesy:
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13008
04/17/05 03:18 PM
04/17/05 03:18 PM
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quote:
What of my view implies rebirth is common, and what of EGW's view says it is rare?
She said, "The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world." If your view is correct, that is, if people are born again with some of their defective traits of character in tact, then anybody and everybody who claims to be a Christian is born again. There is nothing rare or radical about rebirth if it includes some of their former defects. You haven’t quoted anything that suggests we are born again partially defective. The quote you posted above agrees with the quotes I’ve posted here.
Again, here is what she wrote, “In true conversion the soul is born again. A new spirit takes possession of the temple of the soul. A new life begins. Christ is revealed in the character. The spirit of a new life works within.” No suggestion that some of their former defective traits of character remain in tact, undiscovered or uncrucified. It’s a new life, not a modification of the old. “The Christian's life is not a modification or improvement of the old, but a transformation of nature. There is a death to self and sin, and a new life altogether." DA 172.
"The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ." All their habits and practices, not some, but all. Not a combination of some of their old defects.
“That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart.” As you know, selfishness is the root of all sin, and here she plainly says “all selfishness is expelled”. Not some, but all. “Under the general heading of ‘Selfishness’ came every other sin.” LS 241. “Selfishness is a soul-destroying sin.” 4T 476. If all sin has been crucified that means there are no left over defects. None.
"All evil-speaking is rooted out." All, not some. James wrote, "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body" James 3:2. No evil speaking means no sin - a perfect person. Now that's rare, eh? There is nothing rare about your view of rebirth, nothing rare or radical about retaining some of their old defects, nothing rare about a modification of the old man.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13009
04/18/05 12:50 PM
04/18/05 12:50 PM
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike,
When Ellen White says that all selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking is rooted out, I don't understand this has to happen all at once. The born-again person doesn't retain known defects of character, but there may be some which escape his notice.
I did a quick search about "defects of character" and chose some passages that might be of interest to this study:
"The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. If lifted up it will not be because he lifts and exalts himself, but because the Lord exalts him. Having his eye fixed upon the purity and perfection of Christ Jesus, and acknowledging and obeying God in all his ways, he is not blinded to his own failures and imperfections. When his deportment in the eyes of men is unblamable and irreprovable, God reads the intents and purposes of the heart." {TDG 16}
"Looking unto Jesus, dwelling upon His virtues, mercies, and purity will create in the soul an utter abhorrence for that which is sinful, and an intense longing and thirsting for righteousness. The more closely we discern Jesus, the more will we see our own defects of character: then confess these things to Jesus and with true contrition of soul co-operate with the divine power, the Holy Spirit, to put these things away.." {OHC 58}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13010
04/18/05 04:07 PM
04/18/05 04:07 PM
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quote:
Here's the paragraph preceding the TDG quote posted above:
The Lord bears long with men, and when they manifest a determination to follow their own judgments, the Lord allows them to do so. I have been made to see the weakness and ignorance of fallen man, even in his best estate. As man goes deeper and deeper in his studies, improving in learning the will and ways of the Lord, he sees more of his own ignorance, thus revealing that he has made decided progress from the beginning.
Rosangela, yes, there are sins of "ignorance" (i.e., "defects of character") which become more and more obvious as born again believers draw closer and closer to Jesus. But, in light of all the quotes posted above, this insight is not implying they are sins being discovered for the first time, sins which Jesus, in mercy, waited to reveal until some later date.
In other words, she's not talking about "defects of character" that were willfully "retained" for selfish reasons. Instead, they are defects that had "escaped his notice". Why and how did they escape his notice? Is it because Jesus chose not to make him aware of them during the process of conversion?
Which defects is Jesus willing to "wink at" or set on the "back burner" until we are ready to deal with them, until we are ready to confess and crucify them? Which ones is Jesus willing to tolerate in us until He thinks we are ready to live without them? Just because we feel unholy and undone in the presence of Jesus does it mean we have pet, private sins we are unwilling to give up, sins that will bar against us the gates of heaven?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13011
04/18/05 04:24 PM
04/18/05 04:24 PM
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quote:
Here is more of the OHC qoute posted above:
It is the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which Jesus said He would send into the world, that changes our character into the image of Christ; and when this is accomplished, we reflect, as in a mirror, the glory of the Lord... {OHC 58.3}
When the soul is brought into close relationship with the great Author of light and truth, impressions are made upon it revealing its true position before God. Then self will die, pride will be laid low, and Christ will draw His own image in deeper lines upon the soul. {OHC 58.5}
Again, this insight teaches us that it is the Holy Spirit who reveals our imperfections and defects, who brings them to our attention. So, which sinful defects does the Holy Spirit wait to reveal to us until we are ready to confess and crucify them? If Jesus causes certain defects to "escape" our "notice", then isn't it Jesus who is responsible for them? How can we confess a defect Jesus hasn't revealed yet? Please name a defect Jesus would decide to reveal later on.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13012
04/18/05 07:59 PM
04/18/05 07:59 PM
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Active Member 2011
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Sweden
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So what you are saying is that what stands between a man(or woman) and rebirth is sins refused to be surrendered. Thats quite a different thing than what I though you where saying previously that in order to be born again you must have no sin in your life at all.
/Thomas
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13013
04/19/05 04:30 AM
04/19/05 04:30 AM
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That is, no known sins. We are born again without known sin.
But what is a known sin? If the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it yet is it an unknown sin, an unknown defective trait of character? If so, then when will God reveal it? How long will He allow people to go through life with a defective trait of character before He decides to reveal it? What if they die before it is revealed? Will Jesus change it when He comes?
6BC 1072
If we were defective in character, we could not pass the gates that mercy has opened to the obedient; for justice stands at the entrance, and demands holiness, purity, in all who would see God... The change from earth to heaven will not change men's characters; the happiness of the redeemed in heaven results from the characters formed in this life, after the image of Christ. The saints in heaven will first have been saints on earth. {6BC 1072.2}
4T 429
The characters formed in this life will determine the future destiny. When Christ shall come, He will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. {4T 429.2}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13014
04/19/05 01:46 PM
04/19/05 01:46 PM
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OP
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TDG 16
"The nearer the Christian lives to God, the more he advances in divine illumination of mind. He has more distinct sense of his own littleness, discerns his defects of character, and sees his duty in the light in which God presents it. The more closely he draws to Jesus, the more he has a near and clear sense of his own defects which had before escaped his notice, and he sees the necessity of humbling himself under the mighty hand of God. {TDG 16.2}
Are we to assume "escaped his notice" means the Holy Spirit is to blame? In other words, are we to assume the Holy Spirit chose not to reveal them? If so, then who is to blame? Can God fault a person for having defective traits of character if the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed them yet? When will God reveal them? How long will He tolerate sin before revealing it? What is an example of a defective trait of character God is willing to tolerate for a time?
If the Holy Spirit refuses to reveal a certain defective trait of character how can God promise no temptation will be too difficult to resist?
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