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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13035
04/24/05 06:21 AM
04/24/05 06:21 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'm sure Luther wilfully did the things he did, but he didn't do them knowingly (i.e., knowing they were wrong). Regardless of the fact that he didn't know, they were nevertheless sins, and defects of character in the ordinary sense of the word, "character" having to do with one's thoughts, actions and feelings, which were all clearly wrong, hence defective.
If being rebellious is the same thing as what you are saying, why not just say that? From my perspective, you use words and phrases in a unique and provocative way, to argue points which would not be argued if you used clearer language with words and phrases understood in a normal way. For example, if you wrote that when a person is born again, they do not retain their rebelliousness, but are brought into harmony with God, I doubt many people would disagree with this
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13036
04/24/05 03:13 PM
04/24/05 03:13 PM
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5500+ Member
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
If the evidence that a person subdues, rather than eliminates, their defects when they’re born again is based on the fact they must labor to resist the temptations associated with them, and if they eventually die out, would it be reasonable to assume, then, that the evidence a particular defect has been eliminated is the fact the born again believer can no longer be tempted by it?
It seems this conclusion is correct, since Ellen White says that "the difficulty of overcoming will be lessened in proportion as the heart is sanctified by the grace of Christ” {YI, September 7, 1893}
quote:
If the defects of born again believers devolve, diminish, and disappear gradually, is it safe to assume, then, they will eventually reach a point where they can no longer be tempted? Is temptation really evidence our defects have not been eliminated?
Do you mean no longer tempted by a particular sin or no longer tempted at all?
If you refer to the latter, I believe that, if this was the case, neither Adam and Eve nor Jesus could have been tempted, since they had no defect of character. There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us, and Satan can also tempt us using positive traits, instead of negative traits. For instance, he tempted Eve to increase her knowledge. What is wrong with this? Nothing. But it can become wrong if you try to do it independently of God. He tempted Jesus to satisfy His hunger, to show His true identity, to avoid suffering. There is nothing wrong with these things. But it is wrong to do these things in a way that goes against God’s will.
quote:
Do the words subdue, remove, not retain, remedied, as they relate to our defective traits of character, mean the same thing?
It seems so.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13037
04/25/05 03:12 AM
04/25/05 03:12 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, Sister White uses specific adjectives to differentiate between the various types and qualities of human traits of character. But never once has she described a sin of ignorance as a "defective" trait of character. Ignorantly breaking the sabbath is not a "defective" trait of character.
In following quotes please note that she talks about unbelievers who possess "noble" and "excellent" traits of character. She doesn't refer to their unsanctified noble and excellent traits of character as "defective". Character is the result of known and willfull choices we make repeatedly.
SC 57, 58
The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}
4T 505
The unbelieving may possess an excellent moral character; but the fact that he or she has not answered to the claims of God, and has neglected so great salvation, is sufficient reason why such a union should not be consummated. The character of the unbelieving may be similar to that of the young man to whom Jesus addressed the words, "One thing thou lackest;" that was the one thing needful. {4T 505.1}
2T 284, 285
I saw that you should study every move. You should do nothing rashly. Let God be your counselor. He loves your children, and it is right that you should love them; but it is not right to give them the place in your affections that the Lord claims. They have kind impulses and generous purposes. They possess noble traits of character. If they would only see their need of a Saviour, and bow at the foot of the cross, they might exert an influence for good. They are now lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. They now stand in the enemy's ranks, under the black banner of Satan. Jesus invites them to come to Him, to leave the ranks of the enemy, and to stand under the bloodstained banner of the cross of Christ. {2T 285.2}
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13038
04/25/05 03:30 AM
04/25/05 03:30 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
I'd be interested in this too. I think this is harmony with your general idea, but the way you present your idea is not very good IMO (because it's unclear).
For example, does the SOP ever suggest that upon being born again one immediately has a character without defect? I know of no passage which suggests that. However, it would not be difficult to establish that born again believers are in harmony with God's will and not rebels.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13039
04/25/05 03:40 AM
04/25/05 03:40 AM
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OP
SDA
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Rosangela, I like the idea that some temptations, in certain cases, disappear immediately (i.e., physical problems like smoking). And, I like the idea that other temptations disappear altogether after a period of time. Certain sins are self-eliminating as specific hormones loss ground to old age and diminishing desire.
But, again, just because we can be tempted, after rebirth, to repeat a former sin it doesn't mean we still possess the affliated defective trait of character. Jesus was tempted in "all points" like born again believers, not like Adam before his fall. Jesus didn't need defective traits of character in order to be tempted to do wrong. And neither do born again believers. Jesus wasn't only tempted to misuse His powers, to do a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way, He was also tempted to do evil things.
What was the origin and source of Jesus' temptations? God cannot be tempted, therefore, it was necessary for Jesus to become a human, to inherit our sinful flesh nature, in order to experience resisitng temptation. "His human nature was created; it did not even possess the angelic powers. It was human, identical with our own." (3SM 129)
DA 48
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Do you think we can come to the point in our sanctification where Satan can no longer tempt us with evil? that eventually he will only be able to tempt us to do a good thing at the wrong time or in the wrong way?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13040
04/25/05 03:58 AM
04/25/05 03:58 AM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 22,256
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quote:
For example, does the SOP ever suggest that upon being born again one immediately has a character without defect? I know of no passage which suggests that. However, it would not be difficult to establish that born again believers are in harmony with God's will and not rebels.
If our views are essentially the same, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that in everything she wrote there are places where she expresses it the way I do, and the way you do. She was very gifted at expressing the same thoughts using different words. For example:
We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}
A genuine conversion changes hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. {Mar 237.2}
The mighty power of the Holy Spirit works an entire transformation in the character of the human agent, making him a new creature in Christ Jesus. {FLB 137.5}
Through faith in Christ, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed. {RC 125.7}
True conviction of sin, real heart sorrow because of wickedness, death to self, the daily overcoming of defects of character, and the new birth--these, represented as old things, Paul says had passed away, and all things had become new. {RC 208.3}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13041
04/25/05 09:41 AM
04/25/05 09:41 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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Mike, I've addressed this in my last post, but you must have overlooked it, so I'll requote it here: quote:
Do you mean no longer tempted by a particular sin or no longer tempted at all?
If you refer to the latter, I believe that, if this was the case, neither Adam and Eve nor Jesus could have been tempted, since they had no defect of character. There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us, and Satan can also tempt us using positive traits, instead of negative traits. For instance, he tempted Eve to increase her knowledge. What is wrong with this? Nothing. But it can become wrong if you try to do it independently of God. He tempted Jesus to satisfy His hunger, to show His true identity, to avoid suffering. There is nothing wrong with these things. But it is wrong to do these things in a way that goes against God’s will.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13042
04/25/05 10:16 AM
04/25/05 10:16 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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quote:
Also, it would be interesting to see if others on MSDAOL agree with your view that born again believers do not retain their rebelliousness, that they live in harmony with the will of God.
I agree with Tom.
"Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption." {FW 103.2}
"Let no one think that, while he is living in transgression, he will be allowed to enter the gates of the holy city. Those who, when Christ comes, are in rebellion against God will not be admitted to the courts above. No rebel will enter heaven." {TDG 320.3}
"The surrender of the heart to Jesus subdues the rebel into a penitent, and then the language of the obedient soul is: 'Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.' This is the true religion of the Bible. Everything short of this is a deception." {4T 625.2}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13043
04/25/05 01:56 PM
04/25/05 01:56 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
There are some things which are simply inherent to our human condition which Satan can use to tempt us ...
Did this apply to Jesus' human nature, too? That is, did His sinful nature generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings that He had to resist on a daily basis? If so, how do these temptations differ from the ones we experience because our defective traits of character haven't been eliminated yet?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13044
04/26/05 02:04 AM
04/26/05 02:04 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Great quotes, Rosangela. And I'm glad you agree with Tom's way of expressing the truth. But, if we retain our defective traits of character when we are born again, and if they devolve, diminish and disappear gradually, over the course of a lifetime, what will Jesus do with them when He returns if they haven't been eliminated yet? Since Jesus will not, and cannot, change of characters when He returns, and since we cannot enter heaven with our defects, when will they be eliminated?
As you know, I believe our defective traits of character are revealed, confessed and crucified (i.e., eliminated) during the process of conversion, before we are born again, and that we begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth (i.e., with a clean slate and sinful nature). We are also born again like Adam and Eve when they were created - grown up and able to speak and reason like an adult, but with no experience as soldiers of the cross. As we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot repeat our former habits of sin. But more than this, we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit from glory to glory, from faith to faith - just like Jesus did.
How does this view of rebirth and sanctification differ from the one you and Tom believe?
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