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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130316
01/21/11 05:21 PM
01/21/11 05:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JAK
That's just the point, MM. God DOES NOT expressly forbid alcohol. In fact, the opposite appears to be the case, as long as it is used responsibly and in moderation.

Do you feel Ellen misrepresented God's view?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #130331
01/21/11 07:28 PM
01/21/11 07:28 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Would someone here say to their children that it's OK to drink alcohol and that God approves of it?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #130332
01/21/11 08:17 PM
01/21/11 08:17 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,509
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Would someone here say to their children that it's OK to drink alcohol and that God approves of it?
If God approves it, and it is beneficial to health, I can see it is the conclusion one must come to. In fact, it would be child abuse for not enabling your children to have all the benefits of alcohol consumption.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #130337
01/21/11 09:44 PM
01/21/11 09:44 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Active Member 2018
Banned
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
MM: Perhaps a better way of expressing that would be to say that EGW is putting words in God's mouth, because I cannot find a single example in Scripture of God "expressly forbiding" the use of alcohol.

Please, if you find one, let me know.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130342
01/22/11 01:35 AM
01/22/11 01:35 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JAK
MM: Perhaps a better way of expressing that would be to say that EGW is putting words in God's mouth, because I cannot find a single example in Scripture of God "expressly forbiding" the use of alcohol.

Please, if you find one, let me know.

There are several passages that strongly imply God forbids drinking alcoholic beverages. The fact Jesus refused to drink it suggests we should too. Also, the fact God inspired one of His messengers, Ellen White, to say clearly God "expressly forbade" it is noteworthy. she wrote:

Some may inquire, How could the sons of Aaron have been accountable when their intellects were so far paralyzed by intoxication that they were not able to discern the difference between sacred and common fire? It was when they put the cup to their lips that they made themselves responsible for all their acts committed while under the influence of wine. The indulgence of appetite cost those priests their lives. God expressly forbade the use of wine that would have an influence to becloud the intellect. {Con 81.2}

"And the Lord spake unto Aaron, saying, Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: and that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; and that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the Lord hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses." {Con 81.3}

The special injunction of God to the Hebrews in reference to the use of intoxicating liquors should be regarded in this dispensation. But many who are holding the highest responsibilities in our country are, in too many cases, liquor-and-tobacco slaves. {Con 82.1}

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #130343
01/22/11 01:36 AM
01/22/11 01:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Would someone here say to their children that it's OK to drink alcohol and that God approves of it?
If God approves it, and it is beneficial to health, I can see it is the conclusion one must come to. In fact, it would be child abuse for not enabling your children to have all the benefits of alcohol consumption.

Interesting!

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #130349
01/22/11 03:33 AM
01/22/11 03:33 AM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
MM: Two points strike me as interesting:

1) In order to support your assertion that God has forbidden alcohol, you must turn to EGW, and have not provided a single reference from Scripture.

2) Ye err, in that ye know not Scripture. Read Matthew 11:18,19. Here Jesus says: "John came neither eating nor drinking and you say he has a demon. I come eating and drinking, and you say I am a glutton and a drunk."

What was John not drinking? Wine. (See Luke 1:15) Therefore, what was Jesus drinking? Wine. He himself said they called him a drunkard.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #130355
01/22/11 02:30 PM
01/22/11 02:30 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: JAK
MM: Perhaps a better way of expressing that would be to say that EGW is putting words in God's mouth, because I cannot find a single example in Scripture of God "expressly forbiding" the use of alcohol.

Please, if you find one, let me know.

There are several passages that strongly imply God forbids drinking alcoholic beverages. The fact Jesus refused to drink it suggests we should too.
I suppose you mean the vinegar-based sedative he was offered at the cross? Not taking painkiller is different from wine at a wedding..


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: vastergotland] #130365
01/23/11 02:50 PM
01/23/11 02:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
About the wine at the wedding, Chuck Northrop says:

Quote:
Also, consider the logical consequence of those who want to use this passage [John 2:1-11] to justify the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Their argument goes something like this: "Since Jesus produced alcoholic wine, then it is morally right for a person to drink it." However, notice that their logic takes them further than most of them want to go. Since Jesus produced alcoholic wine (as they claim), then not only would it be morally right to drink it, it would be morally right to produce it, sell it, distribute it, and make a living from it. But since that would most certainly cause someone to stumble, then it must be morally right to cause someone to stumble. However, the logical consequence of their argument would oppose the Lord's teaching (Luke 17:1-2).

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #130369
01/23/11 03:48 PM
01/23/11 03:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: JAK
MM: Two points strike me as interesting:

1) In order to support your assertion that God has forbidden alcohol, you must turn to EGW, and have not provided a single reference from Scripture.

2) Ye err, in that ye know not Scripture. Read Matthew 11:18,19. Here Jesus says: "John came neither eating nor drinking and you say he has a demon. I come eating and drinking, and you say I am a glutton and a drunk."

What was John not drinking? Wine. (See Luke 1:15) Therefore, what was Jesus drinking? Wine. He himself said they called him a drunkard.

Do you agree with Ellen's application of the passage she quoted?

Also, do you agree with the following inspired insights:

Quote:
The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine "in the cluster," and says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {DA 149.3}

The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. This is the "new wine . . . found in the cluster," of which the Scripture says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {Te 97.1}

It was Christ who, in the Old Testament, gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. He never places before men that which would be a temptation. His whole life was an example of self-denial. It was to break the power of appetite that in the forty days' fast in the wilderness He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour's blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil.--The Ministry of Healing, pages 333, 334. {Te 97.2}

Wine Recommended in Bible Not Intoxicating.--The Bible nowhere teaches the use of intoxicating wine, either as a beverage or as a symbol of the blood of Christ. We appeal to the natural reason whether the blood of Christ is better represented by the pure juice of the grape in its natural state, or after it has been converted into a fermented and intoxicating wine. . . . We urge that the latter should never be placed upon the Lord's table. . . . We protest that Christ never made intoxicating wine; such an act would have been contrary to all the teachings and example of His life. . . . The wine which Christ manufactured from water by a miracle of His power, was the pure juice of the grape.--Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1878. {Te 97.3}

Do you think the wine Jesus served for Communion was fermented?

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