Earlier on this thread I made it clear that I'm referring to "people who learned about the Lord in the best light and chose not to believe God exists." Paul referred to such people when he wrote, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

So, yes, the people I'm talking about on this thread are fully aware of the truth and in the best light (as opposed to an unfavorable misrepresentation of God).

Nevertheless, for whatever reason, they have concluded that God does not exist. In spite of this, they are capable of performing "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ". Assuming, of course, you agree feeding, clothing, and sheltering the poor and needy qualify as kind, loving, and compassionate.

T: Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think?

M:Yes, I believe the worst of unbelievers are capable of helping the best of believers feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy. Such "generous actions" are kind, loving, and compassionate.

T: This is a bit confusing, as you say "Yes," but then go on and talk about something I didn't ask, and present a quote about something I didn't ask about as well. So please let me try again. Many of your questions appear to have as an assumption that a person can be loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit's influence. Is this really what you think? Please note that what I'm asking is if a person can *be* loving and compassionate apart from the Holy Spirit.

M: Ellen wrote:

"The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give. {SC 30.1}

"It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

The worst of unbelievers, as I understand it, include people who produce "generous actions" "without the renewing power of Christ." I hope this answers your question.

T: Why do you think this? Again, the "worst of unbelievers" would, in most people's mind, I think, include people who do things like abuse children, not help the homeless and other needy people. Why do you think these actions better define the "worst of unbelievers" as opposed to what would come to most people's minds?

M: Please answer my question: Is there any difference between the two sets of "generous actions"? Or, are both sets the result of the Holy Spirit empowering each group to perform the same "generous actions"?

T: So far you're asking me things about an empty set, as far as I can tell. It's like me asking you questions about the actions that people on Mars perform. First you'd have to convince me that there are people on Mars.

A selfish life doesn't exclude apparently good/unselfish deeds.

I think Rosangela phrased it well. "A selfish life doesn't exclude apparently good/unselfish deeds." I think this is what EGW had in mind. I'd still like to know how it is you think people can be good without God's help. What about our sinful natures?