At any rate, please name examples of "very bad things, which are not God's will" that Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly nowadays while under the control of the Holy Spirit.

But Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath; and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity of purpose and their integrity before Him. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law, and the world shall be enlightened concerning the obligation of the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God, to obey a precept which has no higher authority than that of Rome, will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome and to the power which enforces the institution ordained by Rome. He is worshipping the beast and his image. As men then reject the institution which God has declared to be the sign of His authority, and honor in its stead that which Rome has chosen as the token of her supremacy, they will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome--"the mark of the beast." And it is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people, and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive "the mark of the beast." {GC 449.1}

I pointed out that we are imperfect, and, even if God is our master, we may do things in ignorance which are not God's will. You appear to be disagreeing with this, saying that if we do anything wrong, even in ignorance, we are under another master. Is this really what you were wishing to say? That is, if we have God as our master, we will do nothing contrary to God's will, including things done ignorantly?

Personally, I cannot think of "very bad things, which are not God's will" that Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly while under the control of the Holy Spirit. Examples of "very bad things, which are not God's will" that come to mind are things like murder, rape, robbery, etc. That's not to say that things like pride and neglecting to help the poor and needy are not also "very bad things, which are not God's will."

Tom, if you're going to ignore my question, why not cite the heathens:

He took exception to "nowadays", so perhaps he believes it doesn't happen any more since the days of Luther. I don't know.

Considering Jesus' teaching for a moment, that we should deal our bread to the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned, and clothe the naked, is God always behind such acts of kindness?

What the world might term "altruistic" and we might think of as "Christian," do these acts always come from above?

Do you think, Tom, that if a heathen did these things, it was, as Mrs. White referred to in Mike's quote above, prompted by the Holy Spirit? Do you think it would always be from God when acts of kindness or mercy such as these are done?

I'm using the word "always" here because I'm hoping to understand the principle of the matter in your mind. Some might accept "situational ethics" where there are no absolutes. Others tend to see things in black and white and for always. It has seemed to me that sometimes you tend toward the latter, considering your view that God does nothing to harm or punish people, but lets Satan work his woes as the natural course of sin. But other times it seems you present both sides as possibilities and I'm not sure I quite understand you correctly.

Do you have a firm stance on this? or do you tend to be more flexible and think that God might be able to execute harsh judgments and/or that the devil might be able to do some good things?

Biblical support for your position would be helpful in understanding it, if you have time to add that.

I'm using the word "always" here because I'm hoping to understand the principle of the matter in your mind.

T:It depends upon what you mean by this. Jesus said we can only have one master. If you're looking at it from this angle, then no. However, we're imperfect, and even if God is our master, we may do things in ignorance, even very bad things, which are not God's will. How would you characterize that?

GC:I would characterize it as that at the moment we do wrong, we are not under the control of God, therefore He is not our master at that moment. We have chosen a different master. This is why we need to renew our allegiance to God so frequently: daily, hourly.


T:I pointed out that we are imperfect, and, even if God is our master, we may do things in ignorance which are not God's will. You appear to be disagreeing with this, saying that if we do anything wrong, even in ignorance, we are under another master. Is this really what you were wishing to say? That is, if we have God as our master, we will do nothing contrary to God's will, including things done ignorantly?


G:Tom, another way of looking at the questions I posed in my last post is to look at the contrapositive of your statements here.

Suppose a Christian/Christlike individual "C" can do wrong (in ignorance or otherwise--any form of wrong here) while still being loyal to and under God's influence.

Is it possible for a sinner/spiritualist/Satanically-controlled individual "S" to do good (in ignorance or otherwise) while still being loyal to and under the influence of Satan?

Is it your belief that C can do evil, and S can do good, both while remaining on their respective sides with their respective masters?

I'm not understanding how this addresses my question to you. That is, you appear to be asserting that if God is our master, we will do nothing wrong, even in ignorance. Have I understood you correctly?

Before going on to your questions, which I'm happy to do, I'd like to establish if I've correctly understood what you're asserting.

It depends upon what you mean by this. Jesus said we can only have one master. If you're looking at it from this angle, then no. However, we're imperfect, and even if God is our master, we may do things in ignorance, even very bad things, which are not God's will. How would you characterize that?

I would characterize it as that at the moment we do wrong, we are not under the control of God, therefore He is not our master at that moment. We have chosen a different master. This is why we need to renew our allegiance to God so frequently: daily, hourly.

(Y)ou appear to be asserting that if God is our master, we will do nothing wrong, even in ignorance. Have I understood you correctly?