I limited my comment to believers who ignorantly violate the Sabbath, which, in my opinion, is not a "very bad thing" like rape, murder, robbery, pride, neglecting the poor and needy, etc.

The most fearful threatening ever addressed to mortals is contained in the third angel's message. That must be a terrible sin which calls down the wrath of God unmingled with mercy. Men are not to be left in darkness concerning this important matter; the warning against this sin is to be given to the world before the visitation of God's judgments, that all may know why they are to be inflicted, and have
opportunity to escape them. Prophecy declares that the first angel would make his announcement to "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." The warning of the third angel, which forms a part of the same threefold message, is to be no less widespread. It is represented in the prophecy as being proclaimed with a loud voice, by an angel flying in the midst of heaven; and it will command the attention of the world. {GC 449.2}

M: Tom, when the specific atheists I defined earlier on this thread (i.e. learned about Jesus in the best light but concluded God does not exist) work alongside the best of Christians helping to feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy - How would you characterize their help? Good? Bad? Please explain your answer. Thank you.

T: Regarding people doing good things, as I've said before, if anyone is doing something good, it is because they are responding to the Holy Spirit.

M: Tom, if you're going to ignore my question, why not cite the heathens . . . I'm not sure what kinds of things Tom has in mind when he says Spirit-filled, born-again believers ignorantly do "very bad things, which are not God's will" nowadays while under the control of the Holy Spirit. He took exception to "nowadays", so perhaps he believes it doesn't happen any more since the days of Luther. I don't know.

T: Me? I answered your question. In answer to your question, I asked why nowadays was important, and gave Luther as an example of someone who did things which were wrong, even though he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit. However, you didn't address why question as to why "nowadays" is important. In regards to Luther, the anti-Semetic things were what came to mind.

M: A lot has changed since Luther's attitude about the Jews in the 1500's. Can you provide us with modern day examples of "very bad things" which Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly nowadays "while under the control of the Holy Spirit"? The reason it is important to me for you to give up-to-date examples is because I want to know what you believe is current and relevant now. I would greatly appreciate it if you would simply provide the examples I requested. Thank you.

T: I'd like to know what your response to Luther's situation. As a modern day example, I don't see why there wouldn't be people nowadays who were anti-semetic, as Luther was. Was being anti-semetic in Luther's time OK? But now it's not? Is this the idea? What has changed since 1500 that's relevant to this point?

When the soul surrenders itself to Christ, a new power takes possession of the new heart. A change is wrought which man can never accomplish for himself. It is a supernatural work, bringing a supernatural element into human nature. The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. We have only to neglect to ally ourselves with the kingdom of light. If we do not co-operate with the heavenly agencies, Satan will take possession of the heart, and will make it his abiding place. The only defense against evil is the indwelling of Christ in the heart through faith in His righteousness. Unless we become vitally connected with God, we can never resist the unhallowed effects of self-love, self-indulgence, and temptation to sin. We may leave off many bad habits, for the time we may part company with Satan; but without a vital connection with God, through the surrender of ourselves to Him moment by moment, we shall be overcome. Without a personal acquaintance with Christ, and a continual communion, we are at the mercy of the enemy, and shall do his bidding in the end. {DA 324.1}

M: Tom, when the specific atheists I defined earlier on this thread (i.e. learned about Jesus in the best light but concluded God does not exist) work alongside the best of Christians helping to feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy - How would you characterize their help? Good? Bad? Please explain your answer. Thank you.

T: Regarding people doing good things, as I've said before, if anyone is doing something good, it is because they are responding to the Holy Spirit.

MM:Do you think the atheists I specified above are doing good things? If so, do you think it's because they are "responding to the Holy Spirit"?

Also, what is the difference (so far as the good works are concerned) between the Holy Spirit dwelling inside the best of Christians empowering them to do the good things named above and the Holy Spirit dwelling outside the atheists named above "responding to the Holy Spirit" doing the same good things?

Like GC, I do not believe Luther's ungodly thoughts and feelings about Jews were the result of the Holy Spirit dwelling within him. Nor do I believe Luther was under the influence of the Holy Spirit whenever he indulged such ungodly thoughts and feelings. Do you agree?

So, what was the origin and source of Luther's ungodly thoughts and feelings? I believe whenever Luther indulged such ungodly thoughts and feelings he was under the control and influence of Satan. Do you agree?

Again, can you provide us with modern day examples of "very bad things" which Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly nowadays "while under the control of the Holy Spirit"?

Do you think there are Spirit-filled, born-again believers "nowadays who are anti-semetic"? If so, do you think they are "under the control of the Holy Spirit" while they are in the very throes of indulging such ungodly thoughts and feelings?

GC, I wrote this:



I'm interested in your response to these questions.



It depends upon what you mean by "giving." Was what the Pharisees did an "act of giving"?



No, they are both important. That I said "the ends do not justify the means" should make clear that the means are important as well.

I've done some survey work, and in the job we must always start from a certain point of reference and then build out other reference points from there. The accuracy of all the other points of reference depend upon the accuracy of the starting point.