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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13075
04/30/05 05:36 AM
04/30/05 05:36 AM
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OP
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quote:
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
Of course. Sister White wrote that "convresion" is a rare thing among church members. But one ray of the glory of God makes every defect painfully obvious.
6BC 1075
The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}
SC 29
One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}
To answer your question, Yes, the sinless traits of character that God implants within born again believers is perfect the moment, the instant, He implants them. Like a seed, perfection is inherent in the mind of the new man, which unfolds as each trait matures and blossoms - from glory to glory, from one stage of perfection to another. A plant does not progress from imperfection to perfection, rather its inherent perfection unfolds, from seed to blossom to fruit to harvest.
ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}
1 Peter
1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Ephesians
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13076
04/30/05 05:36 AM
04/30/05 05:36 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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"There is not a stain in the character because …" means nothing to me. It's a sentence fragment, not even a complete thought. Humanity combined with divinity doesn't sin is referring to Christ. Christ demonstrated God's character. By beholding Him, we may be transformed into the same image. Here is my favorite Spirit of Prophesy quote regarding perfection of character: quote:
God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. (MB 76)
I've answered your questions. Please answer mine.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13077
04/30/05 05:44 AM
04/30/05 05:44 AM
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OP
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I like that quote, too. What do you think about the following two quotes (reposted from above):
"The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin." (MH 180)
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
Regarding my answer to your question, please see my last post.
Here's a similar quote to one quoted above:
RH RH 9-19-1912
None need fail of attaining, in his sphere, to perfection of Christian character. By the sacrifice of Christ, provision has been made for the believer to receive all things that pertain to life and godliness. God calls upon us to reach the standard of perfection, and places before us the example of Christ’s character. In his humanity, perfected by a life of constant resistance of evil, the Saviour showed that through cooperation with divinity human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character. This is God’s assurance to us that we too may obtain complete victory. (RH 9-19-1912)
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13078
04/30/05 06:22 AM
04/30/05 06:22 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
"We behold Him for the perfection of His character and then we see the defects in our own character. Do you stand before God and say, Cleanse us and change us? You should flee to Jesus Christ and lay hold of the divine merits of the Son of God, and then you are washed from the defilements and stains of sin. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart and Christ does not war against Christ. Christ does not war against the Father. I and the Father are one. He was in the express image of the Father’s person, and we want to express the character of Jesus Christ." (1 S&T 247)
I liked this quote very much. The whole purpose of Christ's mission was to set men right by revealing God's character. When we've seen Jesus Christ, we've seen the Father. When we believe the revelation of God's character we seen in Christ, we are brought into harmony with God.
God is enthroned in the heart. That's a beautiful thought. What does it mean? It's not literal, because God's throne is in heaven. It means that one believes the truth about God, and that truth reconciles one to God, leading one to unite one's heart, mind, soul and will with God's. God sits at the throne of the heart, meaning that one can say with Christ, "I delight to do thy will, O my God; yea, they law is written within my heart."
The key to the whole thing is given here: "We behold Him for the perfection of His character." If we believe the truth about God -- He is kind, gracious, generous and a respector of freedom, not cruel, arbitrary, or harsh as the enemy has portrayed Him to be -- then healing can begin.
I didn't see that you answered my questions. You presented some quotes which were along the lines of what Rosangela presented from Christ's Object Lessons, which talk about about the seed being perfect at every stage. Everybody accepts this principle (at least everybody participating on this thread).
What causes difficulty is when you stray from the language and thoughts of the Spirit of Prophesy and introduce your own ideas, such as the idea that when one is born again one's character is instantaneously made perfect. As I've mentioned, it is actually possible to understand the process of conversion in a way where this is true, if one uses a vocabulary whereby words and phrases have a private meaning, not shared by the general public. But what one generally understands as perfection of character is not something which happens to one the instant one is born again. Rather the teaching of Scripture is that one begins the path at that point, pressing on to perfection. If you interpret this along the seed analogy, fine and good, but why not use language which is clear and easy to understand?
Ok, this is regarding the first question about perfection of character. The other question was, "If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?" I didn't see that you answered this.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13079
04/30/05 05:11 PM
04/30/05 05:11 PM
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OP
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quote:
To answer your question, Yes, the sinless traits of character that God implants within born again believers is perfect the moment, the instant, He implants them. Like a seed, perfection is inherent in the mind of the new man, which unfolds as each trait matures and blossoms - from glory to glory, from one stage of perfection to another. A plant does not progress from imperfection to perfection, rather its inherent perfection unfolds, from seed to blossom to fruit to harvest.
quote:
If our perception of God's character is off, way off say, do you think it is possible for us to have characters which have no defects?
Of course [not. However,] Sister White wrote that "conversion" is a rare thing among church members. But one ray of the glory of God makes every defect painfully obvious. [Any defect retained, after God reveals it, is a cherished sin, and will neutralize the entire gospel].
Our differences, which are profound and many, include the process of sanctification. I believe people, who complete the "process of conversion", are born again without their former defective traits of character. Each trait was revealed and confessed, in light of the cross, until every trait was confessed and crucified. You believe each trait is revealed and gradually crucified after people are born again.
I believe the process of sanctification begins the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience, the work of a lifetime, an advance from one stage of perfection to another, from glory to glory. It is not, as you assert and advocate, the result of progressing from greater sins to lesser sins. Sanctification is not a gradual evolution whereby we become less and less imperfect. It is quite the opposite. It is the result of lifelong obedience, not the result of gradually becoming less disobedient.
We are born again new creatures in Christ. Behold, all things are become new. The old has passed away. All malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings have been crucified. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. We receive, the moment we are reborn, all the fruits and righteous attributes of God as a harmonious whole. We do not gradually accumulate them. There is not a stain in the character because God is enthroned in the heart. The Holy Spirit sits supreme upon the throne of our soul temple. We work out what God works in by cooperating with His Spirit. Humanity combined with divinity does not sin.
Which one of the above mentioned expressions or insights is unscriptural or foreign to the Spirit of Prophecy?
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13080
04/30/05 08:36 PM
04/30/05 08:36 PM
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OP
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Also, regarding the example of Jesus as our perfect surety:
OHC 48
The obedience of Christ to His Father was the same obedience that is required of man. Man cannot overcome Satan's temptations without divine power to combine with his instrumentality. So with Jesus Christ; He could lay hold of divine power. He came not to our world to give the obedience of a lesser God to a greater, but as a man to obey God's Holy Law, and in this way He is our example. The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God's power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset. {OHC 48.3}
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13081
05/01/05 04:21 PM
05/01/05 04:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
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I would like you to support your contention that I believe the things you say I do. When I say that you believe something, I present proof in the way of direct quotes from things you have written. You just write what comes to mind, as far as I can tell, because I do not recognize my own thoughts or ideas among the things you claim are my thoughts and ideas.
So, regarding your post two back, please provide some proof to support your contentions as to what I believe, because you haven't come very close to representing what I believe from my point of view. If you provide quotes, and I have been unclear, then I can clarify what I meant.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13082
05/01/05 05:53 PM
05/01/05 05:53 PM
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OP
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Tom, I guess it is no accident that you continually encourage me to use expressions that you believe everyone can agree with, especially since I can't even correctly represent your view of rebirth. I am truly sorry for getting it wrong. I'm not sure I can go back through all threads and find the exact quotes you are looking for. So, for the sake of time and clarity, would you please refute what I posted and share with us just exactly what it is you do believe. Thank you.
Again, it seems to me, from all the studies we have done online together, that you believe we are born again morally defective, that is, with certain defective traits of character that haven't been revealed or discovered yet, which are gradually revealed, as God sees fit, and confessed, if we are sincere about salvation. Also, regardless of these unrevealed character defects we are seen as, from God's perspective, living in harmony with His will, and no longer rebellious.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13083
05/02/05 01:04 AM
05/02/05 01:04 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I can think of no better way of describing the process of being born again, as I see it, than this: quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.
1) The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God and draws us to Himself.
2) If we do not resist that drawing, we are led to repentence (i.e. the goodness of God leads us to repentance)
3) The Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul (i.e. born again)
4) One's thoughts and desires are brought into harmony with God.
I wouldn't characterize our growth in grace as becoming less and less sinful, but as becoming more and more like Christ.
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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help!
#13084
05/02/05 01:40 AM
05/02/05 01:40 AM
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OP
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Great! We are in agreement, right? Do you think our views differ in any way?
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