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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Tom]
#130836
02/13/11 02:08 AM
02/13/11 02:08 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Tom,
A biblical example to represent the sort of thing I had in mind would be the time when Peter was sincerely presenting what he thought was good, only to receive the rebuke from Christ saying, "Get thee behind me, Satan!" Jesus was rebuking the devil directly, and Peter indirectly, for having allowed himself to become the devil's tool. Peter didn't know it, but Satan had become his master at that moment.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#130844
02/13/11 04:54 PM
02/13/11 04:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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Ok, thank you for the explanation. How about Luther's antisemitism? Do we say that Luther was under the control of Satan whenever he had antisemitic thoughts or made antisemitic statements? But under the control of God when he was doing other things, like leading the Reformation? This was the sort of thing I had in mind when I asked my question previously.
Regarding a bad person doing good things, my thought was a recollection from the SOP that in order to do good, one must be good, and I believe this thought corresponds to Jesus' teachings. For example, the Pharisees gave money to the temple, but they weren't doing good, whereas the widow, who gave just a pittance, was doing good. So a "good" deed isn't necessarily good, as one's heart comes into play.
However, the other way around doesn't necessarily apply. For example, being antisemitic with a good heart doesn't work; prejudice is always bad. Similar for lying, and many other examples could be given. The ends do not justify the means.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Tom]
#130847
02/13/11 06:10 PM
02/13/11 06:10 PM
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So in other words, the act of giving offerings to God cannot be said to be always good. One can give, and the giving be bad. Is that what you're saying?
It sounds like you are saying that it is not the act that counts, but the heart behind the act (i.e. motivation). Would you characterize your understanding this way?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#130876
02/14/11 03:04 PM
02/14/11 03:04 PM
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I think that's what Jesus said about making great displays of their offerings.
However, Tom did say the other way around doesn't necessarily apply. That is, a good person doing bad acts.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: kland]
#130879
02/14/11 06:24 PM
02/14/11 06:24 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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GC, I wrote this: Ok, thank you for the explanation. How about Luther's antisemitism? Do we say that Luther was under the control of Satan whenever he had antisemitic thoughts or made antisemitic statements? But under the control of God when he was doing other things, like leading the Reformation? This was the sort of thing I had in mind when I asked my question previously. I'm interested in your response to these questions. GC:So in other words, the act of giving offerings to God cannot be said to be always good. One can give, and the giving be bad. Is that what you're saying? It depends upon what you mean by "giving." Was what the Pharisees did an "act of giving"? It sounds like you are saying that it is not the act that counts, but the heart behind the act (i.e. motivation). Would you characterize your understanding this way? No, they are both important. That I said "the ends do not justify the means" should make clear that the means are important as well.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: kland]
#130955
02/16/11 05:12 PM
02/16/11 05:12 PM
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Personally, I cannot think of "very bad things, which are not God's will" that Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly while under the control of the Holy Spirit. Examples of "very bad things, which are not God's will" that come to mind are things like murder, rape, robbery, etc. That's not to say that things like pride and neglecting to help the poor and needy are not also "very bad things, which are not God's will." It sounds like you do not consider worshiping the beast a "very bad thing". I limited my comment to believers who ignorantly violate the Sabbath, which, in my opinion, is not a "very bad thing" like rape, murder, robbery, pride, neglecting the poor and needy, etc.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Tom]
#130957
02/16/11 05:25 PM
02/16/11 05:25 PM
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M: Tom, if you're going to ignore my question, why not cite the heathens . . . I'm not sure what kinds of things Tom has in mind when he says Spirit-filled, born-again believers ignorantly do "very bad things, which are not God's will" nowadays while under the control of the Holy Spirit. He took exception to "nowadays", so perhaps he believes it doesn't happen any more since the days of Luther. I don't know.
T: Me? I answered your question. In answer to your question, I asked why nowadays was important, and gave Luther as an example of someone who did things which were wrong, even though he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit. However, you didn't address why question as to why "nowadays" is important. In regards to Luther, the anti-Semetic things were what came to mind. A lot has changed since Luther's attitude about the Jews in the 1500's. Can you provide us with modern day examples of "very bad things" which Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly nowadays "while under the control of the Holy Spirit"? The reason it is important to me for you to give up-to-date examples is because I want to know what you believe is current and relevant now. I would greatly appreciate it if you would simply provide the examples I requested. Thank you.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130958
02/16/11 05:36 PM
02/16/11 05:36 PM
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Tom, when the specific atheists I defined earlier on this thread (i.e. learned about Jesus in the best light but concluded God does not exist) work alongside the best of Christians helping to feed, clothe, and shelter the poor and needy - How would you characterize their help? Good? Bad? Please explain your answer. Thank you.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Mountain Man]
#130966
02/16/11 07:44 PM
02/16/11 07:44 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I don't agree with your premise, as I've mentioned a number of times. As I've pointed out, Romans 1 says: 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful... (Romans 1) This says that all know of God, because God Himself has shown them; all know of His eternal power and Godhead, so they are not excuse. They know enough that they should be thankful. Regarding people doing good things, as I've said before, if anyone is doing something good, it is because they are responding to the Holy Spirit.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: "God destroys no man" explained
[Re: Tom]
#130967
02/16/11 07:48 PM
02/16/11 07:48 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Tom, if you're going to ignore my question, why not cite the heathens . . . I'm not sure what kinds of things Tom has in mind when he says Spirit-filled, born-again believers ignorantly do "very bad things, which are not God's will" nowadays while under the control of the Holy Spirit. He took exception to "nowadays", so perhaps he believes it doesn't happen any more since the days of Luther. I don't know.
T: Me? I answered your question. In answer to your question, I asked why nowadays was important, and gave Luther as an example of someone who did things which were wrong, even though he was under the influence of the Holy Spirit. However, you didn't address why question as to why "nowadays" is important. In regards to Luther, the anti-Semetic things were what came to mind.
M:A lot has changed since Luther's attitude about the Jews in the 1500's. Can you provide us with modern day examples of "very bad things" which Spirit-filled, born-again believers do ignorantly nowadays "while under the control of the Holy Spirit"? The reason it is important to me for you to give up-to-date examples is because I want to know what you believe is current and relevant now. I would greatly appreciate it if you would simply provide the examples I requested. Thank you. I'd like to know what your response to Luther's situation. As a modern day example, I don't see why there wouldn't be people nowadays who were anti-semetic, as Luther was. Was being anti-semetic in Luther's time OK? But now it's not? Is this the idea? What has changed since 1500 that's relevant to this point?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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