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Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13095
05/03/05 01:22 PM
05/03/05 01:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Speaking of "force", as it relates to resisting temptation (the topic of this thread), the following quotes imply that God will supply the force, or power, necessary to resist any and all temptations, so that there is no excuse for committing a known sin.

SC 34
Christ is ready to set us free from sin, but He does not force the will; and if by persistent transgression the will itself is wholly bent on evil, and we do not desire to be set free, if we will not accept His grace, what more can He do? We have destroyed ourselves by our determined rejection of His love. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." "Today if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." 2 Corinthians 6:2; Hebrews 3:7, 8. {SC 34.2}

SC 43, 44
The government of God is not, as Satan would make it appear, founded upon a blind submission, an unreasoning control. It appeals to the intellect and the conscience. "Come now, and let us reason together" is the Creator's invitation to the beings He has made. Isaiah 1:18. God does not force the will of His creatures. He cannot accept an homage that is not willingly and intelligently given. A mere forced submission would prevent all real development of mind or character; it would make man a mere automaton. Such is not the purpose of the Creator. He desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development. He sets before us the height of blessing to which He desires to bring us through His grace. He invites us to give ourselves to Him, that He may work His will in us. It remains for us to choose whether we will be set free from the bondage of sin, to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God. {SC 43.4}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13096
05/04/05 02:33 AM
05/04/05 02:33 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
quote:
Rosangela, it's hard for me to imagine a converted believer betraying Jesus, doubting His messsianic claims, on the night of His betrayal and arrest. Peter was a confused and tormented soul, full of doubt and self-reliance, quick to draw the sword, and quicker still to turn tail. The traits and qualities he revealed that night do not remind me of a born again believer, of someone like Paul was willing to die rather than to deny his Lord and Saviour. Of course, Peter demonstrated the traits of Paul after the resurrection of Jesus, which makes me think his conversion took place after his killer crash.
Mike,

Here she is commenting about another disciple, John:

"John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, because he was believing and trustful, and loved his Master with devotion. His love for Christ was characterized by simplicity and ardor. There are many who think that this love for Christ was something natural to the character of John, and the disciple is frequently represented by the artist as of a soft, languid, feminine appearance, but such representations are incorrect. John and his brother were called the "sons of thunder." John was a man of decided character, but he had learned lessons from the great Teacher. He had defects of character, and any slight shown to Jesus aroused his indignation and combativeness. His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome. At one time he and his brother claimed the right to the highest position in the kingdom of heaven, and at another he forbade a man to cast out devils and heal diseases because he followed not with the disciples. At another time when he saw his Lord slighted by the Samaritans he wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume them. But Christ rebuked him, saying, 'The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.' {ST, April 20, 1891 par. 1}

"In the character and teaching of Christ, the disciples had both precept and example, and the grace of Christ was a transforming power, working marvelous changes in the life of the disciples. The natural traits of character, the spirit of criticism, revenge, ambition, evil temper, were all in the beloved disciple, and had to be overcome in order that he might be a representative of Christ. He was not only a hearer but a doer of the words of his Lord. He learned of Jesus to be meek and lowly of heart, to wear his yoke, to bear his burden. This was the result of companionship with his Master." {ST, April 20, 1891 par. 2}

Notice what she says: "His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome."

Look at the sequence: saved through the merits of Jesus - loved Jesus - there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13097
05/03/05 03:06 PM
05/03/05 03:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Yes, that's my point, too. A born again believer, someone who has experienced true and genuine conversion, recognizes and resists their "natural evil traits", their "inherited and cultivated tendencies" to evil and wrongdoing. The expression "overcome" means recognizing and resisting them. It doesn't mean eliminating them so that we can no longer be tempted by them. Jesus overcame them, too. We will have to resist them, to a lesser or greater degree, until the day Jesus returns and replaces our sinful nature with a sinless one.

Revelation
3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

"The thoughts must be centered upon God. We must put forth earnest effort to overcome the evil tendencies of the natural heart. Our efforts, our self-denial and perseverance, must be proportionate to the infinite value of the object of which we are in pursuit. Only by overcoming as Christ overcame shall we win the crown of life.--MH 455 (1905). {2MCP 666.6}

"Christ has power from His Father to give His divine grace and strength to man--making it possible for us through His name to overcome. There are but few professed followers of Christ who choose to engage with Him in the work of resisting Satan's temptation as He resisted and overcame. {Con 63.1}

"In order to copy a pattern correctly we must carefully study its design. If we are indeed to overcome as Christ overcame, that we may mingle with the blood-washed, glorified company before the throne of God, it is of the highest importance that we become acquainted with the life of our Redeemer and deny self as did Christ. We must meet temptations and overcome obstacles, and through toil and suffering, in the name of Jesus, overcome as He overcame. {Con 66.1}

"By profession they say, We are the servants of Jesus Christ, while their works say that they yield subjection to Satan's sway because it costs them the least inconvenience. Is this overcoming as Christ overcame? Or is it being overcome by temptation. {Con 76.2}

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13098
05/03/05 03:14 PM
05/03/05 03:14 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mike,

Do you still see a distinction between an evil trait of character and a defect of character?
And what is the difference you see between Peter and John?

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13099
05/03/05 03:15 PM
05/03/05 03:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Southwest USA
"Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-round character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies . . . The heavenly intelligences will work with the human agent who seeks with determined faith that perfection of character which will reach out to perfection in action. To everyone engaged in this work Christ says, I am at your right hand to help you. (RC 298)

“Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.” (AA 560, 561)

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13100
05/03/05 03:19 PM
05/03/05 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
Do you still see a distinction between an evil trait of character and a defect of character?
For all intents and purposes there doesn't seem to be a major difference between sinful nature and sinful character. Rebirth doesn't necessarily lessen the warfare against sin, self and Satan, against our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil. In fact, if anything, things tend to be harder, at times. The devil is fighting to hang on. He desparately doesn't want to lose us.

The difference between Peter and John? As far as whether or not they experienced conversion before the resurrection of Jesus - I think it is clear that they both experienced a profound change and conversion when Jesus rose from the grave. Jesus said, If I be lifted up, all men will be drawn unto me." It is the blood of Jesus that saves us.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13101
05/03/05 05:27 PM
05/03/05 05:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
His love for Christ was the love of a soul saved through the merits of Jesus; but with this love there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome.
John was saved, but still had natural evil traits which had to be overcome. The clear implication of the text is that the evil traits had not been overcome -- i.e. a defective trait of character. If the evil traits had already been overcome (i.e. John didn't have the defect of character) she would not have written "there were natural evil traits that had to be overcome" but rather "there had been natural evil traits which had been overcome."

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13102
05/03/05 08:01 PM
05/03/05 08:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
No problem, Tom. That's why I believe John's ultimate conversion occurred after Jesus was resurrected, after Jesus breathed on him the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit fell upon him on the day of Pentecost. But even after he was born again of the Spirit, after his old man habits of sin were crucified, his sinful nature continued to generate and communicate unholy thoughts and feelings, the same clamorings he had to resist, which he wasn't very successful at, before Jesus laid down His life on the cross. And, although certain clamorings diminish over time and with age, sinful nature never dies in this lifetime.

Regarding being born again of the Spirit, there were believers, well after Jesus returned to heaven, who were followers but hadn't received the Holy Spirit. Jesus said,

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Acts
19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
19:7 And all the men were about twelve.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13103
05/03/05 09:28 PM
05/03/05 09:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
No problem, Tom. That's why I believe John's ultimate conversion occurred after Jesus was resurrected, after Jesus breathed on him the Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit fell upon him on the day of Pentecost.
But John was alread saved (i.e. born again) *before* this point. John 2 says that the disciples believed in Jesus. They were born again right away, but they still had much to learn (as do we).

We miss a lot if we think we don't have any defects of character.

Re: No Temptation Too Difficult To Resist! - What? Help! #13104
05/03/05 10:41 PM
05/03/05 10:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
People can say they believe all day long, but actions speak louder than words. The night Jesus was betrayed, by someone who claimed to believe, He was abandoned, by people and disciples who claimed to believe. Denying Jesus is the fruit of an unbeliever, not a believer, regardless of their claim or profession.

Matthew
10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

2 Timothy
2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Titus
1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

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