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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131423
03/04/11 04:28 PM
03/04/11 04:28 PM
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T:MM, if you're reading this, I'm curious if you agree with NJK that man was created to naturally die.
M:Not sure. I believe unfallen A&E would have gradually died if they had neglected to regularly eat the fruit of the tree of life. I think the same thing will hold true for people living on the New Earth.
T: If a person refused to breath, he would gradually die as well (although the "gradual" death would be a lot quicker). We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right? I haven't heard the idea that God created man to naturally die before. This concept doesn't make sense to me, as death, to my way of thinking, is dependent upon sin. We are not immortal. Our immortality is conditional upon us living in harmony with natural law. If we disobey, death is immediate or gradual. For example, if we refuse to breathe, we will naturally die. That's how God designed us. I suppose it could be argued that refusing to breathe is a sin; however, the cause of death is asphyxiation. T:Why did animals and plants start dying? Why won't they die in the new earth? MM:After A&E sinned, God cursed the earth. Plants and animals cannot live eternally under such circumstances. T: So in your view God did something to make the earth and the things in it "bad" (or "defective"). That is, God actually made the earth "bad" (or "defective" or "cursed") as opposed to pronouncing it as such, in view of the damage that Satan/sin had caused. If God, under your view, had simply left things as they were, earth would have been in a much better condition. But, as punishment for what man had done, God hurt every living thing. Christ never planted the seeds of death in the system. Satan planted these seeds when he tempted Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge which meant disobedience to God. Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of the sower the question was asked the master, "Didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" The master answered, "An enemy hath done this" (Matt. 13:27, 28). All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he has corrupted the earth with tares. {2SM 288.2}
Then shall physicians continue to resort to drugs, which leave a deadly evil in the system, destroying that life which
Christ came to restore? Christ's remedies cleanse the system. But Satan has tempted man to introduce into the system that which weakens the human machinery, clogging and destroying the fine, beautiful arrangements of God. The drugs administered to the sick do not restore, but destroy. Drugs never cure. Instead, they place in the system seeds which bear a very bitter harvest. . . . {2SM 288.3} The first paragraph is especially to the point, but I included the one following as well, as it seems to accent the idea that God created human beings to live, not to naturally die. Anyway, I believe that the first paragraph articulates the operative principle. It's not that God did bad things to the earth, or to plants and animals, to make them defective, or work less well than He originally designed them to, but that, because of sin, Satan was given greater access to this world, and *everything* we see in nature which is less than perfect is a result of *Satan's* work, not God's. This seems so clear and easy and logical to me that I don't see how or why one would think otherwise. That is: 1.God ==> good 2.Satan ==> bad It comes down to that. It's not: 1.Man ==> bad; therefore God responds with bad in kind. Rather, man is bad, but God continues to be good, overcoming evil with good. Does Satan have the power to create and to sustain his creations? Are the laws of nature self-acting? Is Satan free to manipulate the laws of nature as he sees fit? Does God ever employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131424
03/04/11 04:37 PM
03/04/11 04:37 PM
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M: Please present your case in a way that explains 1) why Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people in battle, 2) why Jesus commanded godly people to execute capital punishment, and 3) why Jesus withdraws His protection and permits the forces of nature, evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children.
T: Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?
M: Indeed, why? For example, why did He command Moses to utterly kill every man, woman, and child? And, what of the other two named above?
T: Perhaps God didn't do what you think He did. This has been the whole point. Consider when the disciples asked Christ if they should command fire to come down from heaven to destroy them like Elijah did. Christ sighed, explaining they didn't know what spirit they were of, that He had come not to destroy but to save. Christ, by nature, is not a destroyer, but a Savior, and the same is true of God (He is described as such in Isaiah, for example). Satan is the destroyer, not God, or Christ. Christ was explaining this to the disciples, whom, because they didn't know God (i.e., know what He was really like), were thinking He (or Christ, who was God in the flesh) would be pleased by having His enemies destroyed by fire. But Christ was not pleased, because that's not the sort of thing that would please Him. The SOP comments on this by saying that the disposition to harm those who act against us is demonstrative of the spirit of Satan. The point of this is that the disciples did not understand things because they didn't know God. This led them to misinterpret what God's will was viz a viz what happened in Elijah's time. If they had known God like Christ did, they wouldn't have made that mistake. You asked, "Why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?" My questions for you are: 1. Did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? 2. Did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? 3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131427
03/04/11 05:48 PM
03/04/11 05:48 PM
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NJK:Okay Tom, here are my response, though succinct for the reasons stated above:
T:Do you consider the words of Jesus Christ to be words spoken by God?
NJK:Yes. Though I believe that this was through normative prophetic means, allowing Jesus to put it in his own thoughts. As I said, I believe all that He said were directly drawn form what EGW referred to as “I was shown” type of revelations. (Cf. Luke 10:18; John 5:19, 20ff; 8:28; 14:24). I see this differently. I think Christ spoke things which He Himself thought, which thoughts He obtained through His study of Scripture under the illumination of the Holy Spirit. T:Why do you think God was "most reluctant"?
NJK:Read EW 149-153. I'm very familiar with this passage. I asked because I was interested in your thoughts regarding it. In that SOP account, EGW relates that Jesus, who was actually volunteering Himself for this task, had to present Himself 3 times for this and was ‘“pleading” with the Father’. It is also related that there was also “perplexity” and “trouble/doubt” involved in this decision-making. I'd like to know why you think the Father was reluctant. T:I'll try to state your position:
1.God's plan was for man to live forever, and made this possible by means of the Tree of Life.
2.When man sinned, God cut off his access to the Tree of Life.
3.The Plan of Salvation restores man to such a place that he can again have access to the Tree of Life, and so live eternally.
NJK:Yes to all three points. Thanks. It's good to be able to state the positions of those with whom we are discussing things accurately, so we don't just talk past one another. T:So when the Bible says that we receive eternal life by faith in Christ, this is only indirectly. We receive eternal life because we will, after the resurrection, by virtue of Christ's work in the Plan of Salvation, have access to the Tree of Life.
NJK:Yes. That will be tangible effectuation of this Spiritual statement. Ok. (I mean, Ok that you've confirmed my statement of your position; not that I agree with it.) T:That the Tree of Life perpetuates man's life is incidental, as breathing is. God could have created us so we could live without breathing, or without partaking of the Tree of Life, but we are spiritual beings, with intellect, and God wanted to teach us of our dependence upon Him for life. The fundamental truth is that the Tree of Life teaches us that God is the source of life, and our ability to live depends upon Him.
NJK:I can see, based on your expressed view of things here how you consider this as “incidental”, however in my view I can only see it as “essential/necessary”. I'd say it's "necessary" as breathing is. Furthermore, your points make more prominent this depletion of the Reality that is involved in God and His Vast Creation. Having a Spiritualizing paradigm here leaves such “realities” out. As an example with created man, I rather see that God’s creation of man was absolutely perfect. (cf. Gen 1:31). In other words all that God created, is created to the best that it could ever be. I agree with this, but disagree that the best that things can be means that beings must be created to naturally die. That is because God is dealing with real elements in nature and the universe and from these elements, he has fashioned the life we know as it best could. We cannot have a Science fiction view where we could e.g., spit fire with our breath or even ‘live without breathing’. That is not realistic.
It is easy to look at the degenerated state of man and creation today an see all the imperfection and say that God could have done things better. However that was not the case in the beginning. Adam was functioning at an optimum level. He was ca. 15 feet tall, some thus estimate ca. 2000 lbs; had perfect fitness and strength (i.e., full range of muscular strength); we use ca. 10% of our mind; he used 100% on top of having abilities such as photographic memory. Just looking at some “geniuses” today and people with special capabilities, such as remembering every event from any day of one’s past life, shows us just how powerful unfallen Man was. Adam was a walking supercomputer. He probably did not need a digital camera or video camera to recall things, nor a spreadsheet or word processor to process data and prepare speeches. He could easily do this as any technology today. Sharing this with others is another thing, however the (ESP-type) ability to send information waves to someone else as with a cell phone may be something that unfallen man could do. All this to say that God created us perfectly given what is actually available as “building materials”. Even the dust from which he formed man was the best material possible.
This reality also extends to Heavenly creature (i.e., not other “humans” in other world). Why are angels given wings to fly. Why not just fly without such assitance or even thought teleport themselves. Angels also need to be made to fly even more swiftly than normal in certain circumstances. The SOP speaking of Angels excelling in strength. Why are all angels so “strong”. Etc. Clearly wings are not necessary for angels to move around. They can go from heaven, which is, I don't know, billions of light years away(?) (maybe only millions) to earth instantaneously, so this can't be a function of wings. Foundational in my journey in personal and original (when substantively needed) Biblical Research, I saw that I had to start taking God literally at His word, giving Him a benefit of the doubt and instead prayerfully trying to find out “why” He did or said something as He did. And I certainly have not regretted this, because in many ways, we have lost many key truths in the Bible through Spiritualizing, just like the Allegorical paradigms of early Church Father did damage the Church and Truth. It seems to me your being very selective in how you view "literal" vs. "spiritual." It seems to be this: 1.My point of view = "literal." 2.Any other point of view = "spiritualizing." For example, Jesus Christ said, "Take, eat, for this is my body and blood." My guess is that you don't take this literally. So is this not taking Christ at His word? We're told that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Also Christ told us that His words are spirit, and life. We need the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture. If it were not a spiritual book, why would we need the Holy Spirit? NJK:So, based on this background info for my view on this and other such topics, I see that we are rather physical beings. We only become “spiritual” as we, on one hand, come into communion and communication with God. That is indeed really the understanding of being spiritual. Some people looked at the Cross and saw a false prophet paying a just price. Others, even pagans, saw that “this was surely the Son of God”. Spirituality is the result of how we chose to perceive reality and in this GC when we make a move of faith towards God, then he begins to spiritually/mentally “connect” with us, making us spiritual people. Increasingly this will more overtly also become the effort of the Devil. He is only staying in the shadows for now because if he manifested himself as he really is, he would just prove that the Bible is right. Why would this be a problem? That is, why would God's proving the Bible is right be a problem? So now he prefers to let man follow their own course, which he at times subtly influences, since this self-worshipping spirit also serves his purpose. How does it serve His purpose? Indeed making created beings be “gods” was always his goal...
T:I wasn't able to find any translations saying this. Can you point me to one?
NJK:Given the popularity, though syntactical fallacious, of translators to turn such back to back related verbal forms into sorts of hendiadys, stemming from 1600's KJV understandings and for the most part just blindly followed, I do not think I’ll find one. However, as you should know/be functional in Hebrew, that should not be hard to understand. “The proof is in the pudding;” particularly the overall/contextual Theological issue which do indeed greatly affects the way translators render certain expressions. Is the idea you presented an original one? (about "dying thou shalt die" meaning "by reason of being a natural dying being" etc.) T:One last question. Were you saying that the Plan of Salvation was only formed after man fell? I understand that it wasn't put into effect until after the fall, but I'm asking if the Plan had been formulated.
NJK:Based on the sequence of events and the emotions related in EW 149-153, that is what I understand. It is not the “popular” truth given the overarching popular belief that ‘God knows (all of) the future from the ceaseless ages of eternity,’ however this is an example of how EGW was “shown” something which she herself did not fully grasp, even at all, for the most part, but nonetheless from which the Biblical Theological Truth on “God and the Future” is properly understood. I personally believe that EGW started to understand this very late in her ministry, when she, around 1908, began to realize that God, because of the failure of that privileged SDA generation, was going to prolong time and thus cause all of her prophecies to be put on hold for a much later time than what she had truthfully and possibly been showed. We may have some agreement here. Not sure. I'll express my view in some detail when I get a chance. My view's also not the "popular" one. T:You're saying here that man was created by God to naturally die, correct? And, to counter this natural death, God gave man access to the Tree of Life. I've understood you correctly?
NJK:Based on the statement in Gen 2:17b, Yes. And I add, from the above statements, that this was the best that God could do in created human beings living in our universe elements and atmosphere which God further had to arrange to support optimal life. God also chose Earth for this initial creation because, if man sinned, that was probably the best planetary location in this Milky Way galaxy where a degeneration of nature would take the longest before it severely made living impossible. According to the SOP, there were millions of worlds. I think any of them could have failed, as they all had the two trees. I don't think any needed to fail, nor was it intended that any should fail. It sounds like your view would require the existence of entropy (the 2nd law of Thermodynamics) before man sinned. T:Do you believe that animals and plants would have died had man not sin?
NJK:I have also addressed this. See also in the above post of my comments in a PM. I believe form PP 62.3 that animals and nature could partake of the fruit “aromatically”. How could a tree, for example, on the other side of the world partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life "aromatically"? As I also said, I think the tangible eating by man was the object-lesson as well as the matching counterpart for eating the forbidden fruit. So they had no excusing temptation to “taste” here. I agree that it was an object-lesson. T:I've been taking it for granted that you believed, as I do, that plants and animals only die because of man's sin, but I'm not sure that's a good assumption on my part.
NJK:As I also state priorly, this affectation of living non-humans, including nature was apparently because of a withdrawal and limited-to-Eden, “Fruit of Life” aroma made available in the air. That is why Adam and Eve and other animals had to be expelled from the Garden that was evidently still being preserved through this ‘aromatic means.’ Such inert things as the “ground” had to be distinctly cursed. That seems a rather fanciful interpretation to me, but thank you for the explanation. I appreciate all the time you're putting into this. I'll spend some time thinking through things (i.e., from your perspective, trying to get your model in my head) and get back to you.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131428
03/04/11 07:32 PM
03/04/11 07:32 PM
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MM:You asked, "Why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?" My questions for you are:
1. Did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? I don't think killing is in accordance with God's character. Do you agree? 2. Did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? What do you think His character is? Or, better yet, what do you think Jesus Christ revealed in regards to God's character. How do you think God treats His enemies? How does God win battles? Through overwhelming power, and by violence? Or in some other way? 3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children? Yes. For example, in regards to Jerusalem, He said, "How I long to gather you as a hen gathers its chicks, but you would not," indicating His desire to protect them, but they refused, and as a result of their refusal, Satan was permitted to treat them according to his will, and the destruction of Jerusalem happened. Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? Why when I ask you a question, do you ask me the same question over and over and over again? As opposed to answering my question? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? 
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131429
03/04/11 07:38 PM
03/04/11 07:38 PM
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T: If a person refused to breath, he would gradually die as well (although the "gradual" death would be a lot quicker). We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right? I haven't heard the idea that God created man to naturally die before. This concept doesn't make sense to me, as death, to my way of thinking, is dependent upon sin.
M:We are not immortal. Our immortality is conditional upon us living in harmony with natural law. If we disobey, death is immediate or gradual. For example, if we refuse to breathe, we will naturally die. That's how God designed us. I suppose it could be argued that refusing to breathe is a sin; however, the cause of death is asphyxiation. This doesn't appear to be addressing the point I made. If you think it is, please explain to me how what you wrote addresses the point I made. Does Satan have the power to create and to sustain his creations? What do you think? Why are you asking this? Are the laws of nature self-acting? In response to something you wrote several years ago implying this was the case, I brought to your attention to an SOP quote which made clear that it isn't. So you know the answer to this question, and you know that I know you know the answer to this question, as well as knowing the answer yourself. So why did you ask this? Is Satan free to manipulate the laws of nature as he sees fit? To a great extent, obviously he has been given power to do so, as the quote I referenced makes clear. Think of all the noxious plants there are. Satan did all that. The same principle applies to the animal kingdom. All of nature acts differently than originally designed (in terms of animals killing each other for food, death, etc.) This is all of Satan's doing. Does God ever employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction? God permits things to happen.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131432
03/04/11 09:45 PM
03/04/11 09:45 PM
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MM:You asked, "Why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character?" My questions for you are:
1. Did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? I don't think killing is in accordance with God's character. Do you agree? 2. Did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment? Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? What do you think His character is? Or, better yet, what do you think Jesus Christ revealed in regards to God's character. How do you think God treats His enemies? How does God win battles? Through overwhelming power, and by violence? Or in some other way? 3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children? Yes. For example, in regards to Jerusalem, He said, "How I long to gather you as a hen gathers its chicks, but you would not," indicating His desire to protect them, but they refused, and as a result of their refusal, Satan was permitted to treat them according to his will, and the destruction of Jerusalem happened. Given how God treats His enemies, why would God request someone else to act in a way so out of harmony with His own character? Why when I ask you a question, do you ask me the same question over and over and over again? As opposed to answering my question? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? Would you like it if I asked you the same question over and over and over again? My answer to the first part of each of the three questions asked above is - Yes. I have no idea what your answers are. Would you mind answering them? PS - I pasted in your question to each of the three questions for the purpose of context. Again, I have no idea what your answers are.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131433
03/04/11 10:19 PM
03/04/11 10:19 PM
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T: If a person refused to breath, he would gradually die as well (although the "gradual" death would be a lot quicker). We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right? I haven't heard the idea that God created man to naturally die before. This concept doesn't make sense to me, as death, to my way of thinking, is dependent upon sin.
M: We are not immortal. Our immortality is conditional upon us living in harmony with natural law. If we disobey, death is immediate or gradual. For example, if we refuse to breathe, we will naturally die. That's how God designed us. I suppose it could be argued that refusing to breathe is a sin; however, the cause of death is asphyxiation.
T: This doesn't appear to be addressing the point I made. If you think it is, please explain to me how what you wrote addresses the point I made. You asked, "We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right?" Death is natural, right? It obeys natural law. God did not design us to live without breathing. If dying under this circumstance isn't natural, what is it? M: Does Satan have the power to create and to sustain his creations?
T: What do you think? Why are you asking this?
No. Don't know what you believe. M: Are the laws of nature self-acting?
T: In response to something you wrote several years ago implying this was the case, I brought to your attention to an SOP quote which made clear that it isn't. So you know the answer to this question, and you know that I know you know the answer to this question, as well as knowing the answer yourself. So why did you ask this? Good. We agree nature is not self-acting. M: Is Satan free to manipulate the laws of nature as he sees fit?
T: To a great extent, obviously he has been given power to do so, as the quote I referenced makes clear. Think of all the noxious plants there are. Satan did all that. The same principle applies to the animal kingdom. All of nature acts differently than originally designed (in terms of animals killing each other for food, death, etc.) This is all of Satan's doing. Since we agree nature is not self-acting, and since we agree Satan cannot create or sustain the things of creation, can we also agree God acts to enable noxious plants and animals to live and behave they way they do? M: Does God ever employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction?
T: God permits things to happen. Since we agree nature is not self-acting, can we agree God acts to enable the forces of nature to behave the way it does when it causes death and destruction?
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#131434
03/04/11 10:22 PM
03/04/11 10:22 PM
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My answer to the first part of each of the three questions asked above is - Yes. I have no idea what your answers are. Would you mind answering them?
PS - I pasted in your question to each of the three questions for the purpose of context. Again, I have no idea what your answers are. I'll address one of these. (Your question)3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?
(My response)Yes. For example, in regards to Jerusalem, He said, "How I long to gather you as a hen gathers its chicks, but you would not," indicating His desire to protect them, but they refused, and as a result of their refusal, Satan was permitted to treat them according to his will, and the destruction of Jerusalem happened. I'm flummoxed as to how you can say I didn't answer your question. How is this not an answer to your question? I answered "yes," and then explained why I answered yes.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131435
03/04/11 10:30 PM
03/04/11 10:30 PM
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T: If a person refused to breath, he would gradually die as well (although the "gradual" death would be a lot quicker). We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right? I haven't heard the idea that God created man to naturally die before. This concept doesn't make sense to me, as death, to my way of thinking, is dependent upon sin.
M: We are not immortal. Our immortality is conditional upon us living in harmony with natural law. If we disobey, death is immediate or gradual. For example, if we refuse to breathe, we will naturally die. That's how God designed us. I suppose it could be argued that refusing to breathe is a sin; however, the cause of death is asphyxiation.
T: This doesn't appear to be addressing the point I made. If you think it is, please explain to me how what you wrote addresses the point I made.
M:You asked, "We couldn't conclude from this that God created man to naturally die, right?" Death is natural, right? No, it's not natural. Life is natural. Death is the result of sin, an aberration. It obeys natural law. God did not design us to live without breathing. If dying under this circumstance isn't natural, what is it? Death is connected to sin. No sin = no death. That's what's natural. M: Does Satan have the power to create and to sustain his creations?
T: What do you think? Why are you asking this?
M:No.
Don't know what you believe. Why would you think I think Satan has to the power to create? You don't think I know that God alone is the Creator? Why would you have any doubt about this? I really don't understand why you would question me. It would be like me asking you if you believe God exists, and you ask me why I'm asking you that, and I say it's because I don't know what you believe. T: To a great extent, obviously he has been given power to do so, as the quote I referenced makes clear. Think of all the noxious plants there are. Satan did all that. The same principle applies to the animal kingdom. All of nature acts differently than originally designed (in terms of animals killing each other for food, death, etc.) This is all of Satan's doing.
M:Since we agree nature is not self-acting, and since we agree Satan cannot create or sustain the things of creation, can we also agree God acts to enable noxious plants and animals to live and behave they way they do? I would feel more comfortable stating this in the way the referenced quote does. I think it needs to made as clear as possible who (Satan) is responsible for the plans having the noxious quality. M: Does God ever employ the forces of nature to cause death and destruction?
T: God permits things to happen.
M:Since we agree nature is not self-acting, can we agree God acts to enable the forces of nature to behave the way it does when it causes death and destruction? Same point. I think it's important that responsibility be made clear. "Enable" can give a false impression of responsibility. God is not responsible for sin or its results. The SOP makes this clear in saying that Satan is the author of sin and all its results.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Tom]
#131436
03/04/11 10:40 PM
03/04/11 10:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I'd like to ask MM and NJK, (and anyone reading this who'd like to respond; e.g. kland), what your view of the Great Controversy is, in brief. I'll post my view as an example of what I'm interested in seeing.
I've got an idea as to MM's view, but not to NJK's. It would be interesting to see if it's the same as MM's.
My view is that Satan desired God's position and power, so he misrepresented God's character in order to win the homage of God's creatures. This is how he deceived men and angels.
Satan raised questions regarding God, His character, and His government which could only be answered by God's permitting Satan to develop his principles, as the parable of the wheat and the tares illustrates.
I believe death (the second death) is the result of sin, and involves the damage that happens to the psyche, to the conscience, making it impossible to co-exist with God, and those who choose to live according to God's principles.
God's purpose in the Plan of Salvation is primarily to reveal the truth about Himself and His government. The Great Controversy is all about this conflict between whom God says He is, and what God says the principles of His government are, and what the enemy says these are.
The Great Controversy will be resolved when all agree that God has been right.
Jesus Christ was the primary means, and continues to be, by which God fights this battle. "Primary" doesn't do justice to Christ's primacy in this regard.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
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