Hi everyone. I just wanted to share a post from another forum which is quite relevant to this discussion. It's quite a very good study of the Laws of Moses regarding a true prophet and a false, plus what authority any prophets has via Moses, and that Moses was more than a prophet which is compare to some extent to Ellen White authority versus Moses. He does relate to Ellen White being a false prophet when she commented concerning the death of Nadab and Abihu. This whole study of Nadab and abihu is not in this post. If you request to see it, I can find it and post it here. Also, Moses was a false prophet twice. Anyway, this is quite a very good study.
To read the
full disussion is available on Adventist Online.
Blessings!
---- writen by Myron on Adventist Online
I've never claimed to be a prophet. That is something you are putting on me that simply is not there. My calling, which God brought to my attention when I was 11, is to be a teacher. In the hierarchy of gifts of the spirit, or church offices, however you wish to interpret it, which Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 12:28 lists, “
first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”. Teacher is third on this list and is directly below the calling of prophet. So I am well aware that I am not a prophet, nor do I try to be one in the sense given here. Further clarification is given to at least one, maybe two of these offices when Paul subdivides them in Ephesians 4:11 placing evangelists, then pastors between prophets and teachers. My interpretation is that those two offices are higher levels of teachers. I know others who believe they are prophets. Scripture gives no clear definition and it could be evangelists are low level prophets and pastors are high level teachers. It does not matter so long as each of us knows our own calling and do not act beyond the level God has called us to. The thing is, the callings come from God, and are discerned by those who are able... but if you can't even admit something is in scripture when it is right in front of you, your discernment (or maybe your honesty) is such that you are unlikely to see anyone else's calling, and possibly not even your own. Yet you put yourself in God's place to tell me what my calling is or is not.
It is extremely important that we follow God's definitions of these offices, not man's. There is usually a difference and it is usually pretty huge. Dwight Nelson likes to make distinctions between capital letter and small letter things. To a certain extent this is valid, although I think he over does it, nor does he necessarily follow God's definitions when doing so. A prophet is defined in the Law of Prophets in Deuteronomy 18, and in the law of the False prophet in Deuteronomy 13. A further definition, including the distinction between prophets and Apostles, with the clearest definition of apostle to be found in scripture is found in Numbers 12. Since you seem to need it and, I would assume from past experience, unlikely to look these up for yourself we will examine all three here.
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The LORD said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.So the simplest definition of a prophet is someone who is repeating God’s word to people who cannot, or will not (as was the case of Israel at Mt. Sinai), hear God’s voice for themselves. In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul tells us that we are to aspire to these higher level offices and gifts, and in fact, as I will show later, we will all attain the calling of apostle at some future time. I’m not there yet; I have not even made prophet. Yet the simplest definition of a prophet is one who is repeating God’s word to someone else who does not know it and cannot or will not even read it in scripture for himself. In that regard God has made me a prophet to you. We also see two simple definitions of a false prophet: a) One who speaks in God's name something God has not said or b) One who speaks in the name of other Gods.
This simple definition of the prophet is very similar to the situation with Moses and Aaron when God commissioned Moses to go to Pharaoh and Moses tried to beg off because of his speech impediment. God said he had already called Aaron to come to Moses and be his assistant, saying,
“See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.” In God’s eyes these things are relative. I know this goes against standard SDA teaching, but I do have scripture on my side in this. There is also Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted to the Pharisees in John 10:34 defending himself against those who were attempting to use their own definitions to convict him of blasphemy rather than using God’s definitions.
Here in this discussion and especially in our previous discussion about Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10 I knew something about scripture that you at first did not know, and once it was called to your attention you refused to acknowledge. In that regard God
HAS made me a prophet to you. You may listen or you may choose to continue to disregard. That is up to you. I have given you the warning I was called to give you in those lessons. However, this still does not make me a Prophet with a capital P; my calling is only as a Teacher with a Capital T.
Before we continue on to the other texts defining prophets and apostles I want to also make a point about the lowest level gift of the spirit in Paul’s hierarchy which is tongues. This is not properly taught by any denomination I know of, and the definition of apostles given in Numbers 12 points this out and emphasizes it. While the biblical type for tongues was seen at the first fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts 2 this does not actually define the antitype for tongues. This antitype is largely a matter of education. Tongues is really about the prophetic symbolisms of types and their antitypes which God uses in all prophecy, including the law. I will not give a full study of tongues here, but I am quite able to give such a study and prove my case. And so we go on to Numbers 12 where God’s definition of the prophet and his distinction between the prophet and some higher calling relies on this definition of tongues.
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the LORD, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the LORD.
Why then were you not afraid
to speak against my servant Moses?” When God speaks to a prophet and has the prophet relay his words to us he always speaks in some form of symbolism. The KJV renders the word translated here as riddles as “dark sayings”; in other words, their meaning is not clear. This is why NIV and some other translations render this word “riddles”. SDA’s are very familiar with this idea of symbolism, but they like to pick and choose what is to be interpreted symbolically and what is to be interpreted literally. According to God’s word in this text all of it is to be interpreted symbolically, and this includes what Moses relayed to the people, and what other apostles relay to the people.
The word Apostle is not used here but it was clear that God was telling these three prophets that Moses was something more than a prophet and the other two should have known enough about their own prophetic calling to recognize this and not presume themselves to be equal to or greater than he. When using this definition for Apostle, it is clear to see that Paul was much more concerned about the anti-types than the types themselves in his writings on the various laws, even when speaking of marriage and sexuality and how it should be handled in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. Actually this is one of the clearest passages in anyone’s writings that marriage is a type for our relationship to God. There are clearer passages in the Old Testament prophets showing that our sexuality is a type for this relationship. In fact, to anyone with a good foundation in the law and especially the prophets will have no difficulty seeing that Paul is making these correlations here and that the antitypes are his largest concern in these passages.
Also in proving that Moses was an apostle we look at the meaning of the Greek word itself, which means one who is sent. Moses clearly was one who was sent. First he was sent to lead Israel, and second he was sent to tell Pharaoh,
“Let my People go.” Using either definition, one who is sent, or the office of leadership above that of the prophet, Moses is an apostle and apostles did exist in the Old Testament. They were simply called by other names, including prophet. And at this point in time, prophets were more often called seers, not because they could see the future, but because they had “eyes” to see spiritual things.
Adventists point to the Law of the Prophets in Deuteronomy 18, claiming that any prophet working signs and wonders comes from God and this is their proof that Ellen White is a true prophet. Of course, they make exceptions if a prophet they choose not to accept comes along performing signs and wonders, claiming that Satan and his prophets can counterfeit these. They point to Revelation 16:13 & 14 as their proof text although there are other texts that speak of false prophets being accompanied by signs as well. And they ignore the clear testimony of the Law of the False Prophet which was given before the law of the Prophet (thus superseding it?) which is found in Deuteronomy 13.
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.This states clearly two things that SDAs miss every time in their teaching of their doctrines on true and false prophets. First, if a prophet is accompanied by signs and wonders it is God himself who sent that prophet, but second, the signs and wonders are NOT the test of a true prophet. There is only one valid test and it is whether the prophet’s message is in keeping with God’s law and all the previous revelations God has sent. So how are we to determine if a prophet’s message is true or not? First we will refer back to Deuteronomy 18 and the Law of the Prophets where God tells Moses, I will send a prophet like you from among your brothers. There is only one way to determine if a prophet is like Moses and that is to compare that prophet’s message to the writings of Moses.
In keeping with the law of double witness God gives us further testimony of this in Exodus 19.
9 The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Moses is the only prophet in scripture where the people were actually able to witness God speaking directly to him. Even with Ellen White and the signs that accompanied her visions no one actually saw God speaking to her, and I cannot recall clearly that she ever reported speaking directly to God himself. In most of her visions it was an angel who spoke to her, although I vaguely recall that on one or two occasions she spoke with Jesus. We only have her word to prove this. With Moses the entire assembly witnessed this from a distance and the 70 leaders along with Aaron and his sons Nadab and Abihu, and Moses personal assistant Joshua witnessed this at close hand. The purpose for witnessing that God spoke to Moses personally was so that everyone would put their trust in Moses; but it was also to establish Moses as the standard by which all other prophets were to be compared to determine whether they were true or false.
Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. God’s commandments were given to Moses, in part in the presence of the people. I have detailed in many other posts that from the scriptural viewpoint these commandments are not limited to the 10 Commandments. The 10 were all that the people would tolerate God speaking directly to them (Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 18.) Throughout scripture it can be shown rather easily that references to the commandments and to the law spoke of the entire law given by God at Sinai, the 10 he spoke to the people until they refused to hear directly from God anymore, and the rest of that law that he dictated to Moses after that refusal and their request that he speak to them through a mediator. I even quote Ellen White in some of them, so you would have to accept those statements. I won’t spend any more time on the matter here.
In some of our past exchanges you have used Ellen White to refute Moses, particularly in our discussion of the deaths of Nadab and Abihu. There is no statement in that story that Nadab and Abihu were drunk. That is only the first thing Moses considered in his investigation of the matter. And since drunkenness is symbolism for self-righteousness it makes perfect sense to consider this as a probability anytime God makes any form of judgment against a priest. However, Moses investigation continued, and the true cause of death for Nadab and Abihu was stated clearly by Moses in Leviticus 10:16-20. It was not drunkenness. Your argument was that Moses findings were invalid since Ellen White only spoke about their drunkenness and stated explicitly that they were drunk where Moses never wrote that into his account of the story. You called Moses a liar. The law of God calls Ellen White a false prophet, at least in this one matter.
Ezekiel 14 gives further information on determining the source of information for some false prophets, and on how to determine if they are false. We already know from Deuteronomy 13 and 18 that God empowers and sends some (not all) false prophets specifically to see if we will really follow him or if we will instead follow our own hearts. Ezekiel 14 expounds on this theme.
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 “Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any of the Israelites set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet, I the LORD will answer them myself in keeping with their great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.’
6 “Therefore say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 “‘When any of the Israelites or any foreigner residing in Israel separate themselves from me and set up idols in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer them myself. 8 I will set my face against them and make them an example and a byword. I will remove them from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.’”When God sends a false prophet into our midst God not only empowers that prophet and provides the signs and wonders that prophet uses, but he also tells that prophet what to say. Now, we know two important things about the word of God – God does not lie (Titus 1:2) and God himself sends the prophet and tells that prophet what to say. Therefore the word of God is in that prophet and if you can get past the filtering of the heart idols (preconceived ideas) you will always find something of value in the words of such a false prophet. So the source of the message a false prophet gives is not necessarily what determines a prophet to be false. If a prophet speaks for himself in God’s name, for another God in God’s name or simply for another God, that prophet is to be ignored or stoned (stones represent God’s law, so this means the prophet is to be confronted with God’s law, not literally stoned to death; and repentance is the second death.)
All of us have heart idols. Some of us will acknowledge those heart idols and seek the truth which will overthrow them. Others of us wait until God speaks something through one of his prophets that we can easily filter through our idol as “proof” of what we believe. I saw an perfect example of this on the forum a couple of weeks ago, but I cannot find the thread now. The poster said that when checking these things he almost always finds that this first belief was right. While this is not proof positive that the idols of his heart are guiding his study and redefining the word of God for him, it is a strong indicator. I find that no matter how well I know a subject or a passage, nearly every time I take another look at it I find something that needs correcting in my understanding. Something new almost always comes to me either correcting my understanding, or deepening it. If this is never or seldom happening to us it is a pretty good sign that it is a heart idol, and not God that we are following.
The heart idols that apply here take two forms; either or both will be acting to turn the word of God into a lie. First there is the idol of the person inquiring of God. The prophet (or teacher) the person inquires through is supposed to have adequate discernment to identify these heart idols. If they are detected the prophet is not to give him an answer at all. For this reason if the prophet does give an answer to a person with a heart idol that will prevent him from properly interpreting God’s word, that prophet is held responsible for the misinterpretation that person applies to God’s word. It does not matter that God takes credit for enticing the prophet to give this advice and tells the prophet what to say. The prophet in this situation has a problem with the truth himself, so that prophet shares in the responsibility for the misapplication of God’s word.
The second form is a heart idol in the prophet himself. In such cases the prophet does not limit their answers to, “Thus sayeth the Lord;” instead they add their own commentary and interpretation. The nature of the calling of teacher allows for a certain amount of this, but both the teacher and the student must always be aware that what is happening is you get the teachings and understandings of a man, not the express word of God. “What this means to me” has its place. We all need to say this from time to time, especially in the presence of teachers so our beliefs can be evaluated against fact and if necessary corrected. But it is never to be held up as the standard for belief. Only the clear word of God is to be used for that. There is only one standard for the clear word of God; that is the writings of Moses and anything found to be in agreement with Moses, even if it adds a new layer of revelation.
Moses himself is seen to be a false prophet on two occasions recorded in scripture. The first is when he opted not to await God’s timing, which he could have learned through God’s prophecy to Abraham (Genesis 15:13-16). The only real uncertainty here is when the 400 years started. Moses was the fourth Generation in Egypt so he knew it was during his lifetime that the people would come out, and he knew he was the leader prophesied to bring about the release. But he was impatient and refused to await God’s timing and his revelation of how the people were to be brought out. He killed an Egyptian task master and it cost him the throne of Egypt.
On the second occasion Moses is seen to be a false prophet the people were nearing the end of the additional 38 years they were forced to stay in the wilderness because of their lack of faith at Kadesh Barnea. They were once again grumbling against Moses and against God. They were once again without water and refusing to have faith in God’s promise to care for them. They were once again at Meribah where God had given them water from the rock before. When Moses consulted with God he was told to speak to the rock. However, Moses was frustrated and angry with the people and not in a terribly obedient mood. He stood before the people and with Aaron took personal credit for bringing them water rather than giving the glory to God, then he struck the rock with his staff. God sent water to the people anyway, refusing to punish them for Moses’ sin, but he did tell Moses he had now lost the right to enter into the Promised Land.
So we see that God’s law defines a prophet as something other than we define it. We find that it also defines a false prophet in a manner other than what we define it, and it also shows us that a false prophet can be sent from God and will even give us a message that comes from God. It is not the source of the prophet’s message or power that makes him false. It is what he does with that message and power that makes him false. All other prophets are to be compared to the prophecies of Moses which are the statutes God dictated to him, and you are always in the wrong anytime you quote the words of another prophet to refute what Moses says. If that other prophet’s words do not agree with Moses it is that other prophet who is false. Always.
