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Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131784
03/13/11 06:33 PM
03/13/11 06:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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PS - I wouldn't be surprised to discover after we arrive in heaven with Jesus that the 24 elders consist of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and 21 others who were raised with Jesus.

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131789
03/13/11 10:46 PM
03/13/11 10:46 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
In the DA quote above she clearly says that on Sunday Jesus was raised from the grave, spoke to Mary, ascended to heaven, met with the Father, returned to earth, and met with His disciples. Is there doubt regarding this testimony?

....

In the quotations above Ellen makes it clear "the multitude of captives" Jesus raised on Sunday ascended to heaven with Him 40 days later. Is there any doubt?


There are many substantive reasons that challenge the statement of EGW here. She also indicates in DA that this occurred from the ascension with the disciples, however this may be all due to here prior mistaken conflation here. (Also the Manuscript 115, 1897. {CTr 286.6} statement was made in 1897, a year before DA was published.) So my point is, for the substantive reasons I’ve cited above and in my blog, that this vision related what had occurred at the ascension which followed Christ’s appearance to Mary at the tomb. Look over those substantive points (e.g., approval of sacrifice, wavesheaf typology, 40 days of available time, etc.,) and address them head on.

Last edited by NJK Project; 03/13/11 10:56 PM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131790
03/13/11 10:47 PM
03/13/11 10:47 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
PS - I wouldn't be surprised to discover after we arrive in heaven with Jesus that the 24 elders consist of Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and 21 others who were raised with Jesus.


I can see your understanding here and given that these three indeed fill the role/mold for those redeemed ones, this can very well be the case.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131810
03/14/11 03:03 PM
03/14/11 03:03 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
M: In the DA quote above she clearly says that on Sunday Jesus was raised from the grave, spoke to Mary, ascended to heaven, met with the Father, returned to earth, and met with His disciples. Is there doubt regarding this testimony? . . . In the quotations above Ellen makes it clear "the multitude of captives" Jesus raised on Sunday ascended to heaven with Him 40 days later. Is there any doubt?

N: There are many substantive reasons that challenge the statement of EGW here. She also indicates in DA that this occurred from the ascension with the disciples, however this may be all due to here prior mistaken conflation here. (Also the Manuscript 115, 1897. {CTr 286.6} statement was made in 1897, a year before DA was published.) So my point is, for the substantive reasons I’ve cited above and in my blog, that this vision related what had occurred at the ascension which followed Christ’s appearance to Mary at the tomb. Look over those substantive points (e.g., approval of sacrifice, wavesheaf typology, 40 days of available time, etc.,) and address them head on.

Regarding what happened when Jesus ascended and arrived in heaven with the multitude of His resurrected trophies, Ellen wrote in the DA:

Quote:
All heaven was waiting to welcome the Saviour to the celestial courts. As He ascended, He led the way, and the multitude of captives set free at His resurrection followed. The heavenly host, with shouts and acclamations of praise and celestial song, attended the joyous train. {DA 833.2}

Then the portals of the city of God are opened wide, and the angelic throng sweep through the gates amid a burst of rapturous music. {DA 833.7}

There is the throne, and around it the rainbow of promise. There are cherubim and seraphim. The commanders of the angel hosts, the sons of God, the representatives of the unfallen worlds, are assembled. The heavenly council before which Lucifer had accused God and His Son, the representatives of those sinless realms over which Satan had thought to establish his dominion,--all are there to welcome the Redeemer. They are eager to celebrate His triumph and to glorify their King. {DA 834.1}

But He waves them back. Not yet; He cannot now receive the coronet of glory and the royal robe. He enters into the presence of His Father. He points to His wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet; He lifts His hands, bearing the print of nails. He points to the tokens of His triumph; He presents to God the wave sheaf, those raised with Him as representatives of that great multitude who shall come forth from the grave at His second coming. He approaches the Father, with whom there is joy over one sinner that repents; who rejoices over one with singing. Before the foundations of the earth were laid, the Father and the Son had united in a covenant to redeem man if he should be overcome by Satan. They had clasped Their hands in a solemn pledge that Christ should become the surety for the human race. This pledge Christ has fulfilled. When upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished," He addressed the Father. The compact had been fully carried out. Now He declares: Father, it is finished. I have done Thy will, O My God. I have completed the work of redemption. If Thy justice is satisfied, "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 19:30; 17:24. {DA 834.2}

The voice of God is heard proclaiming that justice is satisfied. Satan is vanquished. Christ's toiling, struggling ones on earth are "accepted in the Beloved." Ephesians 1:6. Before the heavenly angels and the representatives of unfallen worlds, they are declared justified. Where He is, there His church shall be. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Psalm 85:10. The Father's arms encircle His Son, and the word is given, "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6. {DA 834.3}

It is obvious from the account above that the things that happened when Jesus ascended alone to heaven the Sunday He was raised (see list above) were not repeated 40 days later when He ascended to heaven with the multitude of His trophies. I'm not sure why anyone would think she indicated otherwise?

Saying she was mistaken is another thing altogether. What proof, though, is there she was mistaken?

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Mountain Man] #131815
03/14/11 04:48 PM
03/14/11 04:48 PM
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As EGW says in DA 793 (notice DA 833 & 834 similarities allusions in bold):

Originally Posted By: SOP
But Christ raised His hand, saying, Detain Me not; "for I am not yet ascended to My Father: but go to My brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and your Father; and to My God, and your God." And Mary went her way to the disciples with the joyful message. {DA 790.2}
Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He had the assurance that His sacrifice was accepted by the Father. He ascended to the heavenly courts, and from God Himself heard the assurance that His atonement for the sins of men had been ample, that through His blood all might gain eternal life. The Father ratified the covenant made with Christ, that He would receive repentant and obedient men, and would love them even as He loves His Son. Christ was to complete His work, and fulfill His pledge to "make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir." Isaiah 13:12. All power in heaven and on earth was given to the Prince of Life, and He returned to His followers in a world of sin, that He might impart to them of His power and glory. {DA 790.3}
[b]While the Saviour was in God's presence, receiving gifts
for His church, the disciples thought upon His empty tomb, and mourned and wept. The day that was a day of rejoicing to all heaven was to the disciples a day of uncertainty, confusion, and perplexity.


(1) All of these would have occurred again, and that exactly as stated here, at the 2nd ascension.

(2) the Waving of the Wavesheaf of the firstfruits was to be done on the day after passover and not ‘40 days later’. EGW is most deliberate to say in DA 833ff that this is what typologically significant enough, occurred at that “second ascension” (actually, by now, at least 5th ascension since Jesus returned to Earth on Resurrection Sunday Evening (=2 Luke 24:13ff), then 8 days later (=3 John 21:26ff), then later again by the Sea (=4 John 21:1ff). Clearly God was in Heaven for most of these 40 days as his recurring visits to earth did not last more than one day. In that case, then why would he not have had his sacrifice approved by the father as described in DA 833 during that time.

(3) Also if the resurrected one did not ascend to Heaven until that 40-day ascension then where were they all this time. Matt 27:53 could also say ‘“with” (i.e., at the same this as) his resurrection’ (Greek: “meta”) and not necessarily ‘after...”. As EGW describes in EW 184.1, their resurrection occurred: “while the earth was reeling and the glory of heaven shone around the sacred spot, many of the righteous dead, obedient to His call, came forth as witnesses that He had risen.” These descriptions match what was recorded in the Bible on the resurrection in Matt 28:2, 3. EGW says they ascended at the resurrection (I do not see that she says that Jesus ascended alone), then why are they again mention in this supposed 40th day ascension. These appearance of these resurrected ones could not have lasted long, probably ca. one hour, (and they weren’t all buried in the same place throughout the land of Israel), because as EGW says:

Originally Posted By: SOP
“Notwithstanding the lying reports circulated, the resurrection of Christ could not be concealed by Satan, his angels, or the chief priests; this holy company, brought forth from their graves, spread the wonderful, joyful news; also Jesus showed Himself to His sorrowing, heartbroken disciples, dispelling their fears and causing them joy and gladness. {EW 184.3}
As the news spread from city to city and from town to town, ”


So if they stayed for 40 days doing this witnessing, their would not have been this perplexity of the disciples prior to Christ’s appearance to them later that evening. They surely would have convinced all of Israel in those 40 days.

It is these substantive incongruences that show that the placement of the EGW vision at the 40th day ascension is evidently a chronological mistake.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: NJK Project] #131822
03/14/11 11:34 PM
03/14/11 11:34 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Aren't we, like, way off topic?


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: JAK] #131825
03/15/11 01:25 AM
03/15/11 01:25 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
JAK, do you have a different example you'd like to study to answer the question that serves as title of this thread?

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: JAK] #131827
03/15/11 01:36 AM
03/15/11 01:36 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Laval, Quebec
I thought this understanding of the 24 elders was pertinent to this topic of “Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation?” as this involves a conflict with many Biblical issues vs. the location of the ascension vision in DA.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: cephalopod] #131837
03/15/11 01:10 PM
03/15/11 01:10 PM
K
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Originally Posted By: cephalopod
While I appreciate your facts I would appreciate it more if you would call Sister White by her appropriate Title; Spirit of Prophecy, God's holy Prophet or God's sock Puppet. When you say "Ellen" it could be thought you were agreeing she said those things yet do not agree with them. I.E. like you don't believe Ellen fully manifested the Spirit of Prophecy.
Who said Ellen White's appropriate title is the "Spirit of Prophecy"? According to scripture, the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. Don't you believe John, Paul, etc. had the Spirit of Prophecy? How about, inspired messenger?

Re: Are Ellen White's writings the final authority on prophetic, doctrinal, or historical interpretation [Re: Frank Peacham] #131865
03/15/11 10:55 PM
03/15/11 10:55 PM
Daryl  Online Canadian

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welcome to the Maritime forums.

Could you give us references where EGW said this so we can check it out for ourselves?
Originally Posted By: Frank Peacham
EGW on sports:

Ellen flatly said that “Satan...invented sports and games,” in which spectators lose their souls. She named “horse races,” “shows,” “theaters,” “tennis” and “football matches,” “exacting games,” that give “attention with trivialities” as unacceptable to Christians. She called “dancing, card playing, chess, checkers” as “dangerous amusements.” When men play “cricket, baseball or other pugilistic contest” Satan “is playing the game of life for their souls” and God cannot find a place in their hearts. “Satan is delighted when he sees” us playing these games because they do “not educate…While the youth are becoming expert in games that are of no real value to themselves or to others.”


White declared that “amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers, etc., which we cannot approve because Heaven condemns them,” and they “lead to gambling and dissipation. All such plays should be condemned by Christians.” When “students (in) the spirit of fun and frolic” become “so interested in playing games that the Lord” is “crowded out of their minds.” Ellen believed that the “passion for games” crowd Jesus out. Ellen believed that the money spend on these games would be better spent in “bring the word of truth to souls in darkness,” reminding us that Jesus “did not live to please himself”


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

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